Fireman Mentorship as a Recruit Training Officer in the Fire Academy

Captain Dan Malanowski inspires both recruits and current firefighters to transform their careers through mentorship, physical training, and real-world preparedness. His experiences highlight the essential balance of support and discipline required to develop confident, competent firefighters.

• Captain Dan shares his background and motivation in the fire service 
• Discusses the importance of hands-on, functional training versus traditional methods 
• Emphasizes physical fitness' role for recruits entering the academy 
• Stresses the need for mental resilience and camaraderie within the fire service 
• Captains trained by various mentors instill lessons on character and integrity 
• Reflects on the importance of combining discipline with support for optimally preparing recruits

Chapters

• 0:00 Fire Service Training and Education
• 9:46 Physical Training and Age Dynamics
• 15:16 Modern Fire Service Training Tactics
• 20:39 New Fire Service Training Methods
• 30:34 Duty to Teach and Give Back
• 40:25 Academy Training Methods and Culture
• 48:20 Demanding Standards in Fire Service Training
• 58:11 Pre-Academy Standards for Fire Recruits
• 1:11:23 Career Growth and Department Changes
• 1:14:34 Life-Changing Career in Fire Service
• 1:19:25 Importance of Mentors in Fire Service
• 1:27:11 Building Trust in Fire Service
• 1:36:31 Passing on Fire Service Wisdom

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

But yeah, it was awesome because I would think about during the week what were we going to be teaching them as far as skill and task wise, what have we taught them recently and what can I reinforce or what can I almost preview for those guys in my engine company. So I give them a little bit of a flavor of something before we really got into it, and then of course I can watch what their strengths, what their weaknesses were, and then we can kind of tailor a skills course to that.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Welcome everybody. Copper State Fireman Podcast. This podcast is for firemen burning the ships of complacency, laziness and excuses. We're promoting love and passion for the job, encouraging eagerness and mastering the craft of the fire service. Remember the information, opinion, values, recommendation and ideas are the host and the individuals of this podcast and are not affiliated or endorsed by the fire departments, organization or companies. The individuals work for. This podcast is for general information use only. Brought to you by the Copper State Fools and sponsored by Solid Foundation Team LLC. Let's go All right. Welcome back everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:16

I'm sitting down here with Captain Dan Malinowski. He's got 18 years in the American Fire Service. Current rank is Captain, specialties held. He's a medic tier T Career highlights. He's a three-time medic of the year for the fire department that he currently works for. He's Central AZ Regional Emergency Medical Care Technician of the Year 2024. West Valley Hospital, braza West Life-Saving Award of the Year. Dan started a fire fitness group called the Nest during COVID. It was designed to get candidates ready for the testing in the American Fire Service when nothing else was available.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Job titles in and out of the fire service. He's a mentor, now an RTO, gcc, fire 1 and 2, captain, emt medic educator for the fire department, airvac, midwestern University, gcu, gcc. This man teaches pretty much across the entire country right now Lisa State, er, medic tech for Banner flight medic, cadet, program manager and a DJ on the side. Big ticket items Danny's proud of is he's proud of all the awards he's been given, which is a laundry list we just listened to right there. He's been given the opportunities that he's been given. He's proud to work for the original members of the department that he works for, the legends of the AirVac before they retired.

Speaker 2: 2:33

He started in the early days and went through all the challenges that they faced with growing his fire department. He appreciates working with the legendary providers and the experience that they provided him, and he also runs a YouTube channel called Medic Junkies. It's training for fire medics and EMTs. Well, that was a. That was a lot, brother. So if I missed anything, please interject, and thank you for sitting down with us this morning. How are you, brother?

Speaker 1: 2:59

I'm doing great man. Thank you so much for having me here. I really appreciate it and yeah, it's a mouthful of stuff there, but I just kind of wanted to highlight that you know, 18 years isn't just in the fire service, but it's a laundry list, like you said, of just teaching in all different aspects, from EMTs to medics, to NPs, to nurses and doctors and everything, so that adult education is definitely kind of a wheelhouse.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Gotcha. And then you know, we talk about it all the time for the Fools and we talk about it on this podcast all the time, about being that constant learner, right? So Danny's a prime example of not just being a constant learner but being that educator too. And for the younger guys out there, just remember, it doesn't matter on the years of service that you have, it's about what you do with that time, so be that you have. It's about the uh, what you do with that time, so be that constant learner. And then, honestly, if you want to be the best at something, learn it and start teaching it, because that's that's kind of where you grow the most. Um, and I'm sure Danny uh, uh agrees with me on that one but we're sitting down today to talk about, uh, the recruit training officer.

Speaker 2: 4:01

So you just had your first class, correct, all right? So everyone always talks about being an RTO being a career highlight or coming back to the academy, giving back. So that's why I really want to sit down with you. So you and I had the privilege of being RTOs together. We were both our first class, so let's, let's go in the deep dive on that RTO. So, coming into the academy, what was your expectations? Did it, did it pan out? So just kind of kind of tell me about the nerves in the beginning, the everything that you were expecting and not expecting when you first got to the academy to do your first class.

Speaker 1: 4:35

I guess my biggest like unknown was how physically challenging was it going to be? I didn't know. I had this vision in my head, I guess, kind of like a bootcamp style, where we're going to be running all day doing towers all day and just grinding, you know. But I was personally pleasantly surprised. It was more about the actual tasks and getting functions done and teaching our job versus just doing the physical fitness stuff you know. Okay, so with.

Speaker 2: 5:00

That said too. Obviously, both are very important. You could be the most skilled technician out there, the best fireman, but your cardio is horrible and you have no strength at all and you're not going to be able to perform those tasks that you have all that knowledge with. So tell people that are listening right now on your personal opinion, right when it comes down to what you like to do, when it comes down to, say, skills courses. So at the Academy, they love to do skills courses in the morning. That's kind of how we start our day here. So your version of a skills course what are you trying to accomplish with these kids? Just to start their morning off?

Speaker 1: 5:33

So the skills courses in our Academy we did them twice a week right Tuesdays and Thursdays. That was definitely my highlight. I really looked forward to skills courses because that was my time with my crew to do what I wanted to do and how big was your crew for the academy, four people.

Speaker 2: 5:48

Okay, they're your engine company, basically.

Speaker 1: 5:50

Yeah, my engine company. I had two recruits from my own department and I had two others from two different departments, so a little bit of a mix there. But yeah, it was awesome because I would think about during the week what were we going to be teaching them as far as skill and task wise, what have we taught them recently and what can I reinforce or what can I almost preview for those guys in my engine company. So I give them a little bit of a flavor of something before we really got into it, and then of course, I can watch what their strengths, what their weaknesses were, and then we can kind of tailor a skills course to that.

Speaker 2: 6:24

Good deal. So would you? Would you purposely look ahead on the schedule and say, okay, so today we're going to do ground ladders all day? So if that's the case, how would you tailor your skills course for that day? Would you beat them up on the ladders, Would you just introduce them, or would you do everything but ladders? What's what's your mindset on that?

Speaker 1: 6:45

No, I mean, since you mentioned ladders, think about the 35. So maybe a week or two before we were going to introduce the 35, all I would have them do is put the ladder against the wall and just raise it up together, go vertical, so it's just more of a shoulder pump, and I'd make them do that five times each and then switch sides right, so they're getting a shoulder workout, and then they're just getting that teamwork, with the two of them raising the 35 and at least they get that concept, and then maybe the following skills course the next couple of days that we do it, maybe they'll raise it a little bit Right, and then maybe on that third skills course, now we're going to start finding targets, we're going to find a window, we're going to find a ledge, so we kind of build into the actual functional task of it Copy.

Speaker 2: 7:21

So that's, that's, that's good. So you're not even you're not looking for the day of right, you're looking weeks ahead of time to kind of start prepping these kids. And so is that kind of how you took the entire academy. It was at least for that skill course excuse me, that skill course section of prepping them like a week or two ahead of time.

Speaker 1: 7:42

Oh yeah, absolutely so. A couple other things, like a hose line management. So before we jumped into that a few weeks prior, I would just hook up hose lines in the building and make them hump the hose around corners. Once we started getting our hands on hose, then I would put the smoke shields over their masks and blind them. So now they're working in the dark, they're having to communicate, they're having to bump up the line All these little parts of hose line management. Before they get into the formal days of training For survival, we were using the window props, door props, things that we can crawl through, jump through, using tools as ladders you name it using each other to boost each other up, just kind of prepping for that survival week, cool, good deal.

Speaker 2: 8:22

So you said in the academy that you worked with and then the company that you were assigned with had recruits from your city, correct, and then other cities. Do you find it a challenge? Or how do you relate to these other cities? How's that work for you? The system you work in the academy that you're an RTO at, how does explain to listeners how that would work? Because across the country, that's that's that's different. That you're going to have one academy that has multiple different cities, counties, fire districts, whatever, all working maybe underneath a recruit training officer that doesn't even work for that city, right?

Speaker 1: 8:56

Right, yeah, no, I didn't think it was any problem whatsoever, cause we're extremely blessed to work in the system that we do right with automatic aid, so it was pretty much flawless. I know these guys are going to be doing pretty much the exact same job regardless of what city they're in, so we just worked as one team and that's good and for everyone listening too, it's the skills that are taught at the academy are regional.

Speaker 2: 9:19

So the city that Danny works for, compared to the city I work for, compared to maybe one of the recruits that was employed by one of the other cities, we all do the same tactics, the same lingo, right, and we deploy and the state skills are all the same so it's easily taught, correct? You kind of feel like that. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I agree with you. I didn't think there was any issues, but I know guys are going to be asking that question. So we talked about the skills course. Okay, so that's two days a week. That's not a big deal. Physically, before we get into all the tasks and everything else, what else would you guys do with the kids for physical training outside of the skill sets, besides the skill courses?

Speaker 1: 9:56

So you're talking about like the Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

Speaker 2: 9:59

Whatever they end up doing.

Speaker 1: 10:00

Monday, wednesday, friday, they had the PT cadre. They'd take them up, they'd do some calisthenic-type stuff, they'd be in the weight room, they'd do a lot of more cardio-based-type training, and then the Tuesdays, thursdays, were skills courses and then, of course, all day they're in their gear and grinding. We had a couple other things like 22 Towers and Memory of 9-11. We did that twice. We did sub 20, which is basically all in PTs, cardio course type thing that you have to do ideally under 20 minutes or as close to it. Am I missing anything else I can think of?

Speaker 2: 10:34

I know that's the majority of when we talked about. If you listen back at captain Healy's episode about our hiring process, he talks more detailed about the sub 20. So if you, if you want more information, look for Connor Healy's episode and that'll kind of break that down a little bit. Um, so you talked about the physical aspect of the Academy, right? So we've been talking about the kids the whole time. Let's talk about the RTOs, let's talk about the captains, right? So we just said you have 18 years on the job. How old are you? Uh, 38. Okay, so 38 years old. What kind of? What kind of challenges does that face a 38 year old male right, coming back and now we're working out, right, and exercise and doing these skills with 18 to 25 year old kids Like, how does how does that work? Talk to the audience about that.

Speaker 1: 11:17

Yeah, I'll be honest, I was definitely nervous about it because I've always believed in being the one leading from the front right. You got to be the example to these guys and, as I've told everybody that I've always believed in being the one leading from the front right, you've got to be the example to these guys and, as I've told everybody that I've worked with, I will never make you do something I'm not willing to do myself. So I'm not just going to tell them to go do something, I'm going to go do it with them. So before the academy, I was making sure that I was running, I was hitting towers, I was doing skills courses pretty much daily and a lot of times by myself.

Speaker 1: 11:45

Sometimes I try to get some groups together. I would try to work with either our cadets or the recruits coming in, just trying to build some of those bonds beforehand and get that group exercise mentality going on. But yeah, that was my biggest thing is just man. I'm definitely twice the age now, almost as some of them. And yeah, I didn't want. I didn't want to look like the old beat up guy, you know.

Speaker 2: 12:05

Right, no, no. And and I had the same reservations. Right, I'm 43 now, so it was the same deal and I'm going, man, I'm like, I feel like I'm going through the academy all over again. But, um, what guys don't understand is when, if, if you have anxiety about things along those lines like, and I get it, the good firemen, like Danny myself sitting down right now, we I hate to say, but we want to be the best right.

Speaker 2: 12:29

I know you feel like that, I know I feel like that, and the idea that someone can outperform us is is nerve wracking. Right, age doesn't matter, Size doesn't matter, anything else. But you got to remember at that point and I'm curious on your personal opinion on this you don't have to be the fastest, the strongest, right, you're the one that has the most knowledge at that point, right, and your job is to pass it down. But, more importantly, like you said before, you're just in the grind with them. You don't need to be the best right. They're younger, they're stronger, they heal a lot quicker, right, but you're the knowledge base and you're there to just kind of show them. So how do you feel about that? When it comes down to comparing with the entire academy between the RTOs, the other kids, the recruits, everything like that.

Speaker 1: 13:11

Well, a couple of things that I'm sure most of you yourself can probably attest to this. If you think of any kind of fire you've been on where in your younger days maybe. You have that older saltier captain who never works out, never does skills courses, have that older saltier captain who never works out, never does skills courses, and all of a sudden you pop a job and that guy will kick your ass from gear and he just goes and goes and goes forever and you're like what the hell? This guy hasn't trained a day in his life that I've seen since I've been here. But obviously he's been on the job for quite a while.

Speaker 1: 13:38

And this one guy I'm thinking of came from another department that was a lot busier back in the day too, and they just know how to work in their gear, right, they've accustomed their body to it, um, and maybe they've learned how to work smarter, not harder, kind of a thing. So. But then also, just when it comes to training in general, whether it's for me or for the recruits, um, the job doesn't matter how old you are like. No, the fire doesn't care if you're the old guy, the, the young guy, victims don't care, right, they just expect a fireman to come put the fire out and to come rescue them. So whether I'm twice the age as the new recruits or I'm the same age like in my earlier days when I started off I was pretty much their age Doesn't matter. You still got to train to the job, not to your age if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 14:23

No, no, I love it and I love exactly what you said and that's a really good timestamp right there. The fire doesn't care. Your age doesn't care, your experience level, how many years you have on the job, right, you could be a booter literally 8.05 in the morning on your first day on your first rotation and you catch a very good job, right, or maybe a career job, or it could take 20 years to get there. Like I said, the fire doesn't, the fire doesn't care. So we talked about the physical aspect of let's really get into your job here at the academy, the instructing side of it. So, out of everything that since this is pretty fresh in your head of everything you did this last academy class, what was your favorite thing? You did Either a class, a skills course, evolution, compliance, whatever. What was your favorite thing about this academy when it came down to something that you were involved in teaching?

Speaker 1: 15:11

So a couple of things. Back to the skills course. I think this goes back to my days on the one and two. A phrase I heard a lot when I used to be a mentor in the one and two was well, we don't need to teach them that because they'll learn that in the quote academy, the full-time academy.

Speaker 1: 15:24

I remember hearing that too Well, back then our department ran reserves and I knew the way that our department kind of hired and recruited was straight out of the one and two. So once they graduate the one and two they could literally get hired in two weeks, be sitting in the back seat with me they don't have a quote real academy, because the one and two was their academy Gotcha. So I knew from personal experience that if we don't teach them that now, then what are they going to do when they're actually on the truck soon? Right, like they need to know that now this is all they're going to get. So again back in the skills course. That's kind of my mentality of. This is my chance to kind of preview what we're going to teach them but also give them more of a spin or real world flair to it that will prepare them for a real call and for the field right, because they may not get that in the 45 minutes or hour and a half that we have for that station right?

Speaker 2: 16:16

No, and before you go on that, like we've everyone listened to this that's been through an academy, probably more than five or six years ago or whatever probably has the same experience that you and I did, like when we first went to the academy. It was okay, we're going to do it like this in the academy, right, but then in the real world, the boys will teach you. So that's exactly what you're talking about Taking away that. Hey, we're going to teach you a version of firefighting, but that's not going to happen as soon as you get on the field.

Speaker 1: 16:42

So yeah, and with that in mind, I got to give a huge shout out to our lead RTO and whoever has created what the Academy is now. Because, yeah, I've had so many booters or new people come through over the years where it's like, oh well, this is what I was taught in the Academy and it's like, okay, we're not doing Academy way, we're doing functional way, right, but this Academy. I was very pleased to see that we put a lot of emphasis on functional tasks and we kind of skipped that whole academy thing and I know you've talked about training scars a lot in your podcast. We skipped a lot of those scars and went right down to the down and dirty. What are we going to expect them to do in the field? So I thought that was awesome.

Speaker 2: 17:17

Yeah, and I wholeheartedly agree with you, and it was something that I was also surprised coming here, because until you experience a very well-oiled machine, like this academy is right now, I agree with you wholeheartedly. There's a lot, there was. There's very little that's still in there, like, hey, listen, there's things that we have to do for the state. We have to teach you this way. This is a state curriculum that we need to sign off. That's going to be evaluated by a state employee.

Speaker 2: 17:44

You know it's, but outside of that, you're right. It's like, hey, let's cover those basic skills and then, from here, we're going to teach you how we expect you to do it on day one, which is, I think, foreign to a lot of academies, I believe. So it's something that I wholeheartedly believe that right here in the region that we work in, this academy does a very, very, very good job with that. So, when it comes to that real world thing, what were you involved in teaching? That you think is the biggest change for real world fireman tactics that's now being taught in the academy, compared to, say, when you and I went through.

Speaker 1: 18:16

Oh, search and rescue 100%. The VEIS, ves, targeted, however the hell you want to call it right, it's all the same thing. We know that, targeted or however the hell you want to call it right, it's all the same thing we know that. That was a huge like blessing, I think, to teach that here Because, as we've talked to on-duty crews and everyone that we know, maybe half the people know what that is Like.

Speaker 1: 18:36

That's a new concept out here in the Valley. Yeah, it's been a thing across the country for a long time. Right, I mean, I dang near got written up for it a couple of years ago for teaching it because it was quote too far outside the box. But now we're teaching it in the academy and we got away from that concept of being on all fours crawling like a baby through a building where you're slow, you're not effective, you're missing a lot of area. And now we're getting into it, we're being aggressive, we're searching through windows, going in through, maybe ahead of the hose line or the non-conventional entry points, you know, yeah, I thought that was great.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Yeah, it's. It's funny too. I, I believe I could be way off. This is just my opinion I believe why we're being so successful with these newer tactics and I say newer, they're not newer to the American fire service, they're just newer to us in our system Um, but it's uh, I don't even know where I was going with that, but it was um, the. I think it's because we're bringing in oh, that's what it was. We're bringing in these instructors that are younger now. So we're bringing in guys as an instructor because they have the experience in that modality that we're trying to teach and everything else.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Let's use Kevin whites, for example. Right, he was our first episode president of Copper State Fools Quick, shameless plug on that one. But so, for example, kevin does not have a lot of time with the department he currently works for, but he teaches here all the time for search tactics because he is very good at teaching very aggressive oriented search, tripod method, then enter, search, target search, everything else where I believe and again, this is my opinion prior to it was like no, you can't come in and teach until you have 20 some odd years on the job. But the problem is, is what we were running into. And again, personal opinion, I'm curious on how you feel about this with your department. Your personal experiences is those senior guys, no shade on them, but when they came in to teach, they were teaching what they taught, what they were taught 20 years ago, which is like what you said crawling like a baby.

Speaker 1: 20:31

Right, we don't enter windows right, we take a whole size. Never lose your hand line. You always stay right on it. You don't get off.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Right, all that stuff. So I mean, let's talk about it Like it's. Do you agree? Like is it because? Is it because is it because of the instructors that we're bringing in, or do you think people are just finally starting to branch away from what was always done Like hey, it's OK to experiment because of the wealth of knowledge that's now available.

Speaker 1: 20:58

It's probably mostly because of technology. Youtube, right, youtube Academy is probably the best thing I've used in all of my own personal education. I watch it religiously and you see all these different tactics, techniques from all over the country. I just feel between that and Instagram and just other guys migrating this way like yourself and bringing other ideas in I mean, especially in our state, where the melting pot and the fire service is no different, right? So I think we're just starting to learn to be smarter and we're learning things that are just different.

Speaker 1: 21:27

You know, take forcible entry, for example. I really love that we're spending so much time and emphasis on that, because when I was taught a halogen, I was told the edge is not for prying and I was told it's not a striking tool and so, like you would not use your halogen to smash into an ax as a wedge, and you wouldn't use the ads for anything other than just, maybe to quickly roll maybe a security door, right, that's about it. So obviously we know that's dumb and we've definitely gotten beyond that, but it's just silly things like that we were completely incorrectly taught back in the day or we maybe hit a tiny bit of it and then we moved on, yeah Right. So I feel like we put a lot of emphasis, at least in this academy, on forceful entry, on the searching, and we spent a ton of time.

Speaker 1: 22:15

Back to the original question. Kind of my favorite thing was how much ventilation we did. We were on that roof almost a couple few weeks, probably altogether, and again I've heard from other recruits that have come through other classes where they maybe got to cut not even a handful of holes the entire academy, whereas we were cutting four or five in one day on some of the days. And then we would get into a commercial, yeah, and we got to do the skills courses. We got to use some of those props. We would either be using saws, we would go manual and ax our way through the props. I thought we got a lot of time on vent and I really, really loved doing that stuff.

Speaker 2: 22:56

I kind of found my little niche, I guess, in that spot with our academy. No, I love it and I agree with you too, because I always felt like across I shouldn't say across the nation, from my experiences with the two academies that I went through back east and then here I always felt like the ladder work section of it and I'm not just talking about ventilation, I'm talking all ladder work was barely touched and it was, it was. We got tiny little tidbits and then the rest was pretty much so. Hey, when you get in the field you get spun up by a senior ladder captain or senior ladder Lieutenant or whatever the case might be, or a senior fireman, and you'll learn it from there. And of course, you get on the field, the guy's mother fuck you until you pick it up.

Speaker 2: 23:30

Hopefully you're a good dude and you pick it up quickly and you're aggressive. We all know how it kind of works out. But I was in the same boat because we spent so much time and I can only speak for, obviously, what we experienced together on ladder functions, heavy functions, things like that. So, for example, something I was proud of with this academy when he came down actually teaching the kids, is when we were doing garage door cuts, right. So I used to be a garage door guy, so I know garage doors and anatomy and their failure points pretty, pretty well, but it's funny. So I would set up the kids where the engine company is, like Danny was talking about four dudes, so I would set them up after teaching them. So I'd have a K-12 with a composite blade, right, so for cutting metal for everyone that knows that right. Then a K-14 that has a multi-blade, so diamond tip. It cuts everything really well, except for wood. It kind of cuts wood, okay. And then a chainsaw without a carbide tip. And in the field we carry chainsaws with carbide tips. All I had them do was grab the K-12, make a down cut, right, put it down, turn the saw off, start the K-14, same deal Down, cut, chainsaw down cut. Then they did lateral cuts and then at the end I asked them all the same question which one was faster? Every single one said the chainsaw.

Speaker 2: 24:43

And these are aluminum, residential, either insulated or non-insulated doors. And there is a huge misconception out there that you cannot use a chainsaw. So instead of telling guys, hey, you can use a chainsaw, I want them to experience that and decide for themselves on what they're going to pick. Then, after that's done, I take that crew of four, right, one has a pike pole so you can be able to pull the door, push it in. And then I have the entire crew do the evolution. Okay, we're going to go ahead and cut this door, open up the garage. So I always have the K-12 on one side, the chainsaw on the other side and the K-14 going across being the heaviest tool, right. And I tell them when you're done with your cut, assist your brothers and sisters finish in the rest. Well, guess what? The chainsaw ends up doing everything right, and it's because it's so much faster and you can't experience it until you actually try it. And then they go through the evolution. Then I ask them the same question again all right, so if you're boss, right, you get on the job and you're like hey, open up the garage, what's the first saw you're grabbing? Every single recruit said the same thing Chainsaw.

Speaker 2: 25:44

Prior to that class they were taught by senior guys. And again, no shade on them. They're asked hey, how would you cut a garage door? And one member had talked to me prior and said chainsaw. And they go, no right. And he did the right thing. He shut up and listened right, which is what you should do. And so I told him all this is what you do. If your captain tells you to grab something different, do what your fucking captain tells you to do. Then you can have a conversation afterwards and what I'll tell him is I'm like, hey, listen, and I know you agree with me on this one.

Speaker 2: 26:13

There's a lot of things and I want to talk about a couple of those with you today that they are the tip of the spear in our system, because it's brand new being taught that was never taught prior to the last couple of classes, kind of like where you're talking to with, then enter, search, targeted search, oriented search, tripod, the whole nine.

Speaker 2: 26:30

But garage door cuts is another thing that was never taught in the academy. So I always tell them the same thing. You know, do what your boss tells you to do. And then, after the fire's out or after the call is over, that's the point where you say, hey, cap, hey lieutenant, hey, senior fireman, whatever the case might be, we were taught right, we could use this because of right. And then we compared all three tools together and it was faster. Next shift is there any way you can go to the academy and I can practice again or show you right, and those are like the kind of approaches and I'm curious on how you think about that. When it comes down to these newer tactics that these kids are learning, coming out in the field and then coming to that 20 year captain or lieutenant with this idea that they've never tried before, like how do you, how do you kind of feel about how they need to approach that?

Speaker 1: 27:16

Yeah, how do you get those ready for that? Correct? Maybe a brand new guy, you got to kind of dance around it a little bit, right. But brand new guy, you got to kind of dance around it a little bit, right. But I think, as long as you approach it right, you should be able to have those conversations before the call happens or after and just say, hey, like, what about this? You know, this is what I was shown before, and the guys might look at you sideways and be like what the hell? Why would you do that? I don't know, but that's what they showed us. And they go all right, well, try it, let's try it out, let's see what works. And they might have complete doubt. But again, once you see it, you're like, oh man, that actually works really well, right, right.

Speaker 1: 27:51

And I've had those experiences myself too. Years ago just cause you're kind of bringing this up we were taught one specific way how to do the Denver drill, and so I was very used to one way. Well, we got in the middle of this drill and the training chief is watching us. We're trying to get this guy packaged up, ready to push out the window, and the captain has one way in his head that he knew from way back when. And I had one way in my head and we definitely were butting heads and it's pretty obvious there and I'm ashamed to say it, but this was a huge learning point for me in my career Because finally I kind of just rolled my eyes and said F it whatever, let's do it. And it worked. And I'm going holy crap, it actually worked Right. And then I know the chief had some words with the captain like hey, what's wrong with your guy? Like I earned that discipline that came after Um, but that was a huge eye-opener that oh, maybe there are multiple ways to skin a cat Right, and sometimes you just got to shut up and do what the captain says. And then you have that conversation afterwards Like wow, I didn't think that was going to work or maybe I have a different way that might be better. But the only way you're going to find out is if you actually get out there and train. So hopefully with those new guys, have a crew and have a captain that are willing to go try.

Speaker 1: 29:19

It's all trial and error, right. You can't just say one way works and that's my way. You have to be willing to try multiple ways numerous times and then make an educated decision, because you might try five things one time each, but some things don't exactly go the way you planned. Maybe there's a mistake here, mistake there, and then that leads to ah, screw that way, I don't like that way.

Speaker 1: 29:30

Well, it's because it was brand new. We haven't tried it, we didn't work out the flaws right, like the two and a half. Now that's a big thing, is going long and doing a reset with the two and a half. Well, some crews are pulling 100 feet off, disconnecting, putting it back in the truck. Some people are pulling the whole 200 foot two and a half. Which way is going to be faster? You don't know until you get out there and you do it Right. So, and then you have to have all members of your crew and some of these things actively participating in it, because it's a crew function, right, yeah, no, no, exactly, and, like I said, wholeheartedly agree with you on that one.

Speaker 2: 30:03

So back to back to the position that you were just in as an RTO. So we talked about what you really liked about the Academy. So what was your least favorite part about the Academy, when it comes down to just your personal experience as an instructor, or I shouldn't say what's the worst part, what was the most challenging for you? I should say the most challenging, yeah, was it the schedule, was it?

Speaker 1: 30:27

Oh, yes, a hundred percent, yes, yeah, for me personally. I absolutely hate the schedule. I'm the guy like everybody knows me in the department. They joke that I'll be the guy that cracks a monster open at 12, 1, 2 in the morning just to get a little extra work in and do something Like. I'm going to bed normally anywhere between midnight and 2, 3 in the morning, and now I'm waking up at 3.34, getting ready to go to the academy, right? I've never worked a 40 hour job in my life, so that schedule is completely different now to me and I just feel like you know, you wake up super early, you go grind all day. You go home within a couple hours you're ready to pass out. You're exhausted, right, so you don't get anything done during the week. You're trying to play catch up on the weekend, but now you're also trying to hang out with the family or have some personal time to do something, and then it's just your weekend's over and now you repeat, do it again.

Speaker 2: 31:14

You know it's the. The amount of effort and time and energy that you have to commit as an RTO is something that you're not prepared for, I think, until you actually do it and you're right. Like the schedule. The schedule sucks Monday through Friday. Like the only time I've had a Monday through Friday was when I went to TRT and Haskell Right. Then it's just like and then back at the Academy now and I'm like man, how do people do this? Like the general public fuck this. Like how do you get shit done? Like you try to go to Costco on the weekend and you're like.

Speaker 1: 31:46

I'm not going to Costco on Saturday, the.

Speaker 2: 31:48

I'm like are you fucking kidding me? But it's funny. Like as firemen we're so used to our schedule where other people like how do you work 24 hours? Be like how do you work eight hours? Right, that shit sucks. You got to work all the time. At least I knock.

Speaker 1: 32:01

I had it in my head that I was going to like every weekend I would go to the station and wash my gear work out while I'm there waiting. Hell. No, I'm going to take advantage. Sleep in a little bit. I'm going to go do all my shopping, yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:13

No way. Yeah, I had the insight that I was going to work overtime every single Saturday. Right To do a partial, maybe even 24, stay on the truck and everything else. It's like hell. No, I have so much stuff I need to do and I'm exhausted Now like the last thing I want to do is go to work again, or you know, day number six, and then do a, do a 24 or a 10 or a 12 or whatever.

Speaker 1: 32:31

Yeah, well, I did, cause I jumped back into the one and two this time, cause they're doing everything here right Facilities. So on Wednesdays I would usually be all day here with our Academy and then I would stay, do the class at night with the one and two, and then on Saturdays I'd come back um on some of those and then either Saturdays or Sundays we'd have cadet meetings half the time too. So it was like almost six, seven days a week. I'm doing MCSs and fire ground stuff and it's like, oh my God, I need a break.

Speaker 2: 32:56

So how? How do you get somebody? Or I shouldn't say that, let's let me rephrase this question Um, why would you want to do this job then? Because you just said the schedule sucks. It absorbs all your time, it takes time away from the family, You're physically, mentally exhausted. Why in the world would anybody want to do this? Like, why did you want to do this?

Speaker 1: 33:17

I think we owe it to those that are coming behind us. Everything that we learned, or everything that we know, was taught to us in some fashion, some way. Somebody showed us a way, somebody was willing to work with us or train on a certain task with us. We weren't able to do any of this by our own, so we have to pay it forward to everybody that comes before and the knowledge that we have. It's lifesaving, right. So and I, you know, I kind of use the academy and teaching is almost a way to live through my students because you've talked on their podcast Like I don't wish harm on anybody but I want to run all the crazy, awesome calls, right?

Speaker 1: 33:57

I don't train this hard to sit on my butt and do nothing, but I can't be everywhere at once. So if I can at least help any or everybody else with some tasks, some skills, some knowledge, some pearl that they can use to save a life or to make someone's day a little bit better, then that's worth it to me, yeah, and I dude, that's, that's it right there.

Speaker 2: 34:19

It's everything you said, but, especially in the beginning, it's it's our duty to give it back Right. And I give credit to him when I say it because he's the first one that said it to me and I love it. And you basically said it in different words. But none of us were born with this information. Someone taught us right. So shame on us. And I was actually just listening to the podcast this morning.

Speaker 2: 34:39

It was a fire engineering, not sure if it was a recent one or whatever the case might be, but they were talking to very young members in the fire service that were doing very well and hard chargers and are probably going to be very big in the fire service in the near future. But they were, they were. They were asking them like the, why, like the? Why would you commit so much time and energy and everything else? And the one female on there, her first experience was with a college program, so it was like engine number three, I think they called it, and but with that is, it was run by the college kids, right, and it was almost like a department. So they came in as a freshman year, the booter, right. And then, when you make it to a senior in college. You might be the deputy chief or the fire chief of this made up fire department, right, with this made up. But they had a fire engine and they had to check off stuff and they had to, you know, go through EMT and they had to run like medical calls and things along those lines. Medical calls and things along those lines.

Speaker 2: 35:30

I don't know all the dirty details, but what really resonated with me, and why I'm mentioning it now, is that if they stopped, they literally said the department would die, because that's the only way they keeps going is the next guy gives back, right, the senior gives to that freshman, the freshman works all the way up to the senior and then does it again right, rinse and repeat. And that's a college program. That is the American fire service, right, that senior guy teaches a junior guy and eventually everyone gets seniority right. And what kind of senior firemen, lieutenant, captain, battalion, are you going to be? Are you be the guy that just milks the system right and enjoys the benefits of the job? Or you could be the one to be like hey, I want to make sure that the guys below me are better than I was, or they get to the position I'm at quicker right Because I want to give them that info instead of, like when we first started, it took a long time to get all this information, because they're dating ourselves a little bit right, but like the internet wasn't like involved in our entire lives, like we were alive when the internet became which is weird to say, but it's, it's, you know.

Speaker 2: 36:38

Like we didn't have access to all this information where I believe now a two-year fireman, if they're a hard charger, can get a shitload of information without having to travel really far. Oh yeah, for sure, okay.

Speaker 1: 36:49

So it's uh, yeah, and you got to think about too. I mean, we are all replaceable. At one point, every single one of us is going to retire, we're going to move on, and I don't want any of that knowledge to go with me or die right? So again, we have to pass it along if we expect that fire department to continue and to progress, because, ultimately, why are we here? We are here for them, we are here for the citizens, and I don't know about you, but I've had 911 called on my family members multiple times and I've had to call for my own family multiple times and what I expected, just subconsciously, was a well-trained, proficient crew, whether it's for fire, medical rescue, whatever. I expected them to come and fix the problem right. Well, if I expect a stranger crew to come serve my family and be perfect at it, how dare I expect myself to do any less for someone else?

Speaker 2: 37:46

No, I love it. That's it. That's, that's good and I hope that resonates with a lot of people, right, we always say, do you want it? You know, would you want you to respond to your house? Right, but that's exactly what you're saying Like real life experience where you've had a call and that's what. Hey, that's what I expect as a fireman for these crews to come in. So what do you think the public expects? Even more, Even more than what we expect, because we know what goes into all of this, right, Between the call take and the crew that's responding and where they're responding from, and everything else and all those things.

Speaker 2: 38:17

Trying to get back on track a little bit. So we talked about the schedule being crappy. We talked about all the stuff that you really loved about it. What do you believe again, your personal opinion what is still left right now in the American Fire Service that you're seeing in the academy level? All right, it doesn't necessarily have to be this academy, but just in general personal opinion, right? What are we still lacking for these recruits that you notice when they come out into the field or that you've heard, not even with your department, but just nationwide? What do you feel like we're lacking at the recruit level that we could improve on right now, in your opinion?

Speaker 1: 38:56

That's funny. One of the recruits right after graduation kind of asked me the same thing. What would I would change?

Speaker 1: 39:02

I wish we could actually migrate to multiple different academies just to get a different footprint of their buildings. Because you know we go in and out of the same building constantly, every day. You get to know the floor plan like the back of your hand. It's really not much of a buildings, because you know we go in and out of the same building constantly, every day. You get to know the floor plan like the back of your hand. It's really not much of a challenge after so long.

Speaker 1: 39:19

So I wish we could mix it up and go into different buildings and I wish, like in the field, if I get a new guy, I love to go out to neighborhoods that are under construction and go find a stick house and again make them go throw a ladder to that window or that balcony, or let's go take a plug in the most weird, bizarre position, maybe one of those plugs that are locked in between walls, maybe there's brush or obstacles, vehicles, whatever, right, obviously you start taking a whole academy out into the wild, so to say. We're going to probably break some stuff and it caused some problems. But I just wish we could mix it up a little bit, throw some curve balls at them, um. I wish we did do a few more functional burns where we can try different approaches, um, and give everybody that same kind of experience, um. But obviously I know it's a time crunch, I know it's a financial thing, um. But yeah, that's a wish.

Speaker 2: 40:09

Yeah, no, I mean, that's a uh, it's a pipe dream. But again, that's kind of why I was asking. It's like you know, what could you, what could you change, what could we do better? Because as soon as I firmly believe, as soon as we say, hey, we're doing a good job right, then we're not progressing.

Speaker 1: 40:25

I was pleasantly pleased that this academy my expectation of academies was more basic stuff. Academy my expectation of academies was more basic stuff, but this one seemed to be pretty on point for the allotted time that we had. What we could do with them seemed to be pretty efficient for a new recruit, firefighter, right. I guess one thing that we practically maybe could change if we could get a little extra time would be to be a little bit more in the classroom. So we weren't so rushed, because I feel like everything we try to teach them, we were just rush, rush, rush. You get an hour to teach a whole topic. Like that's not enough time, right, yeah, but that would probably mean that we need like a whole nother week or something added. We need.

Speaker 2: 41:07

Yeah, my personal opinion, I think the. So the academy that both of us have been recruit training officers at is 16, 13 official weeks, right, but it's probably about 15 or 16 total, depending on the city, with pre and post academy and things like that. But I honestly believe and it might sound ridiculous I think academy should be about six months, because that would allot. Hey, we're going to do whatever skill we're introducing today. Let's talk ground ladders, right? So we're going to introduce ground ladders today, we get a half a day to teach it in the classroom and then we can grind for a week on it. And I agree with you because we talk classes together and literally at points you're tapping me going, bro, you're out of time or I'm tapping you going?

Speaker 2: 41:50

hey, danny, you got five more minutes in there because they're screaming like hey, get the kids down here, because I mean we're, we're on the clock, we're on the clock. So, and and again, it's obviously a money thing and everything else. How do you feel about the um? Were you ever prior military? Okay, I know you have military family right. Um, how do you feel? Again, personal opinion. How do you feel? Again, personal opinion. How do you feel about the militaristic versions of academies that are out there? So I was listening to a guy I believe was Kansas City, and they run a very militaristic academy. Same with Prince William County, virginia, I believe too. So everyone has a different flavor. We're kind of like a little bit in the mix or in the middle there. What's your personal opinion on it? When it comes down to that militaristic academy, yes, sir, no sir, but more importantly, like the image of it, where they're running together, they're marching, they're walking, you know everything's in place, in line, everyone's dialed in. What's your opinion on that? Does it matter, does it not?

Speaker 1: 42:48

No Good question. I think there's a double-edged sword here. So I got two different kind of opinions or views of. It is one I think of how I learn. I would love it.

Speaker 1: 43:03

I wish I went through more of a bootcamp style academy where people are yelling and screaming Like that's how I thrive, that's how I learn. Like Mike Patton, when he would do medic school right, pre-code yeah, the veins bulging out of his forehead, he'd throw books at your face. If you were Mike Patton when he would do medic school right, pre-code yeah, terrified, yeah, the veins bulging out of his forehead He'd throw books at your face if you were falling asleep Like I love that. It kept you awake and kept you engaged, right. But if you were to have that kind of mindset with most of the newer generation, they would crumble, they would fall.

Speaker 1: 43:34

And I see this all the time with teaching EMT and medic stuff with the newer guys is that they get so flustered and they can't think, they can't process. They lock up right. So you have to be a little bit more of a mentoring kind of instructor to help build them up. You know military does a good job of breaking everybody down and they build them up, I think maybe in the fire service we got the breakdown part pretty good, especially through probation and whatnot, but then we leave them. Yeah, we don't really do the buildup part. So the way that I personally learned and the way that I teach are polar opposites. Again, I like being yelled at, screamed at, throwing stuff at me, whatever, keep me in the trenches, but when I'm teaching it's more of a mentor aspect. Um, and just trying to be encouraging, positive, all right. Hey, I know you really messed that up, but let's figure out why you messed it up, what went wrong and how do we make it better, right, gotcha?

Speaker 2: 44:23

I my personal opinion on that and the reason why I asked is just because it's it's always a topic I feel like um, no matter where you go, it's either too strict, not strict enough. It's no one's ever happy in the field and when I say, like the guy, the guys, like the guys in the field, no matter what it is, the Academy is never up to snuff. Um, but my personal opinion it's funny because we share Academy here with PD recruits also, and it is night and day difference If you're ever to watch the operation they are, they have bootcamp. It's frustrating, and then we are the polar opposite. Yeah, and I, I feel like, and they, from what I've been told is they get away with or get away with it. They do it because in the field, right in real world, that's how cops are typically talked to, like firemen are typically looked at by the public as a good guys. Cops are typically looked at in public as a bad guys, whatever. Uh, we all know what we're talking about, right? I just I don't know, don't know how else to word it, but they're used to getting yelled at in the field, so they want to want them to get prepped.

Speaker 2: 45:22

I believe again my personal opinion we're doing our recruits a disjustice by we could split it if we have it, doesn't matter how long the Academy is. Basically almost have like a transition where the first half of the Academy is fucking bootcamp, where we are breaking them down, but we're very militaristic. They're marching there, everything's in order, their uniforms are tight. I mean, is that attention to detail? Because we talk about it all the time but physically we never enforce that attention to detail. We just show them over and over again when they lack the attention to detail and what happens with it. And then again personal opinion transition to that more of a mentor educator Okay, now you're in line, you're good, you're solid, right, and now we can start dialing in the nuances. And hey, this is what my personal story is and my struggle when I learned this. Let me show you what worked for me.

Speaker 1: 46:15

Maybe that helps them Right and I've learned that through the classes that I teach is you almost have to put the fear of God into them right up front. You have to have standards, and you got to hold them to those standards and not sway in any way. Right, I think the biggest key is consistency. So, no matter who it is, what the problem is, you are consistent to the policies, procedures or the task that's on hand, right. So you do that from the very beginning. You set the tone and then I would find, maybe about midterm or so, that's when things start to click, they start to bring everything together and that's kind of when the tone starts to change to more of all. Right, now we're working together as a team. We can have a little bit more fun, a little bit more relaxed, but we still have the mission that we have to focus on, right, right, yeah, and the Academy here, man, when the cops are running circles around us and you hear them getting yelled at and they're in their slacks and dress shirts, running towers with dress shoes, and we're in PTs just kind of hanging out whatever, laughing like what the? I don't understand this. It's the exact same departments at the exact same facility, but yet PD versus fire is two totally different cultures. I wish, and I think the biggest problem is we're just so afraid of the lawsuits that are out there these days and we don't really know what's gonna bite us in the butt. I wish there was some formal training that we could get out here. And I've heard like I was just talking to a chief the other day about this where they took a group of RTOs to New York and they went and kind of watched and observed what they do and I could be wrong here, but I don't know all the details, but it sounds like they actually send their RTOs to like official RTO type training, right, I wish we had some formalized training for us prior to the academy, where you bring in a couple lawyers and you look at previous lawsuits and then they tell us exactly what does the law say we are allowed to do? Because right now we don't have that. So we're just literally operating out of fear, going I don't want to have my name on a lawsuit, I don't want to do that. Well, are we allowed to do that or are we just afraid to do that? Right? Because I do feel we need to have more structure.

Speaker 1: 48:20

Today's culture and the people, the newer recruits that are coming in. They lack that structure, right. And whether it's just a problem with generalized culture, if it's a problem with education, the school systems, right, everybody gets a pass, everybody gets a purple ribbon. Nobody's held to the actual standards because everyone's afraid of getting yelled at by the parents, they're afraid of getting criticized, they're afraid of lawsuits, so we just keep passing people along, right? I wish that we had more culture.

Speaker 1: 48:49

So, starting off with that yes, sir, no sir, hey, I've told you three times and you keep messing this up, you keep wearing a fricking watch when we tell you not to. All, right, now you're going to pay for it. Right, and I wish we would do it more as crew stuff too. If one guy fails, the whole team fails, even if you have three recruits out of the four that are studs. At least they can learn the valuable lesson of hey, I don't want to be that guy that causes everybody else to struggle, right, so I better keep my shit tight. Um, and at least there was a lesson in that, right.

Speaker 2: 49:17

I've always told him too. It's like, don't ever, um not capitalize on someone else's mistake. You know, like learn from other people's too, because why go through that pain and heartache if you don't have to right? Like, if your brother goes through that, like, learn from that, and I mean brother as an, even as a recruit like you can learn from that stuff. When it comes down to that hard nose, like we, like you're saying, set the standard from literally day one, minute one, and then hold them accountable. And that's something that I believe I feel like we're lacking in our system right now, and because of that, I and you hit the nail on the head.

Speaker 2: 49:52

The problem is, when these kids got on the field, forget the hard-nosed captain, that on their first job or whatever, or that really crazy extrication or something that they have not experienced yet, and he gives them that very aggressive direct order. And then they're like shit, you know, is Danny mad at me? Or it's like no, I just, like you're, like I need you to do this right now, so I just gave you that direct order. We can talk about it later. Like I don't need to say please, thank you. Everything else we've we've talked about that before, but take that out of it. And now let's insert the public right. So we're.

Speaker 2: 50:23

We're not always the good guys. We used to be right. But now we are looked at as by some people, government employees, which we are right. We're all employed by a government agency of some sort, and there's a good portion of people out there that do not like government employees to start with. Then you can take a portion that don't like public safety and another portion that doesn't like firemen or whatever the case might be.

Speaker 2: 50:43

So we not necessarily showing up to the house to grandma smirking that's like, hey, when you guys are done, they're giving you cookies and everything else and they love us or whatever. That still happens, right, thank God. But at the same time, we're met with a lot of aggression from some of these patients too, especially the urban campers right, we can call them that or whatever. Or the Czech welfarers and the guys that don't call because someone else calls and we have to go and we have to make sure they're okay, right, and then they're motherfucking us right from the get-go in our face and everything else, and you can take that booter or probie or whatever you call them in your system and he has no fucking idea how to handle that. And when I say how to handle that is just being able to take the licks right, the verbal insults, without barking back, because right not taking a personal.

Speaker 2: 51:28

Yeah, not taking a personal. It's not like they're coming after you directly. They don't fucking know who you are, right, but again we're doing our members a disservice because then they're they're barking back. Right now it's an argument. Before you know, there's a complaint coming around or whatever the case might be, and that brand new guy is getting documentation on his fucking record for something that he was never equipped to handle, right, because shame on us for not being hard enough on them to be like it's no big deal, like yeah, they either lock up or they come unglued and that's what ends up on the front page of the news, and both are horrible because they lock up, they can't function Right, or they come unglued and you're right.

Speaker 2: 52:05

Then their headline newspaper fireman loses it. You know, you only see 10 second clip compared to the minute that was leading up to that, so cool.

Speaker 1: 52:13

Yeah. So if we could be harder on them, like, okay, he's yelling at me, whatever. Like I've heard this before, yeah, like like like, that's it, that's all you got. Like, yeah, you should have heard Orsini in my face. That guy was scary.

Speaker 1: 52:23

Yeah, like this guy's not on my face no-transcript, but you can still be strict and hard on a specific task, right? If they keep fumbling a ladder, okay. Why do you think that I'm getting so pissed off at you? Why do you think that I'm in your face about this? Well, it's because if someone dangling from a fricking balcony when you show up on scene, you better throw the ladder and get up there as fast as you can, and if you're fumbling around, you better believe you're going to be caught on YouTube and everyone else across the country is going to see how much you're fumbling this job efficiently. Exactly. Yeah, and again, attention to detail, right?

Speaker 2: 53:14

And how do you, how do you drive attention to detail in an academy setting? It's that hard nose, you know, uh, drill instructor mentality from the get go, and then you instill, like you said, you instill that in them and then you transition to not that buddy but that mentor relationship, and then it becomes, um, uh, muscle memory, right.

Speaker 1: 53:33

So relationship, yeah. And then it becomes muscle memory, right. So I always help people with the idea of at 3 am, when you're dog-ass tired, you've been running all day, you're up all night, you haven't really slept at all and now you get the call, that one in a million call of a lifetime, where it matters how are you going to perform right? And now, as a captain in our position, it's like I don't need to hold your hand because I got a million things I need to do. Right. I need to give you an order and trust that you're going to go do something. While I can break away, go do a 360. I can go talk to the family, I can kind of do a size up, I can be on the radio. I can't do all of that if I'm also having to babysit you. And how you're throwing a fricking ladder to a second floor window, right, like that should be second nature by now.

Speaker 1: 54:11

Um, so yeah, I think those type of things we should absolutely, at a certain point in the training period, start expecting perfection and start getting up their ass about it. If they're not doing it right and you're going to physically pay for it, go run towers or do pushups or do it again and again, and again, and again. Don't worry about the time crunch. You're going to do this a thousand times. If you can't get it, or if you're not getting it and we have a skill sheet for it, then you can't pass the standard, then you're out. This isn't meant for everybody, Sorry, not sorry.

Speaker 2: 54:44

Yeah, no, I'm glad you said that, because I don't believe that's said enough. Like there is, there's certain jobs out there that's not meant for I would love to be an Air Force pilot, right, I just that's like outside of this. That's the other thing I would really love to do, right, but I'm just I'm not good enough in math to do be that, right, my eyesight's not good enough. Like I cannot physically be a freaking fighter pilot Like I would have loved to be. Right, same thing Just because you really want to be a fireman doesn't mean that you can.

Speaker 1: 55:11

Yeah, this is not a if you believe it, you can be it kind of a thing. Again, fire does not care, victims don't care, they expect perfection, that you have a job to do. You either do it or you don't. Simple as that.

Speaker 2: 55:30

Yeah, and this is a very unpopular opinion, but again it's mine but you might be too small, right, because your system or your city you work with might have trucks that literally you might not be tall enough to be able to close the compartment door after you open it if it's a roll-up door, like those little things. Like shame on us for putting people into that situation and not being honest with them and saying, listen, like you're a hard charger, like you might possess all the skills but physically you just can't do the job because of your physical size. Not saying that if you're shorter you can't do this job. I'm just saying as an example, because I've heard that story where literally there was somebody they had to get let go because they could not physically close compartment doors because they weren't tall enough. Like you can't carry a step stool.

Speaker 1: 56:10

Right. No, there's certain skills and things that you know as an instructor. That's your job is to get creative and find ways around some of their deficiencies. And how can, if they can't do it one particular way, can they still achieve that task by maybe manipulating their body or that task a little bit? Right, you just gotta get creative. But if you still can't perform X, y and Z at the end of the day, then so be it. Right, I just got to get creative. But if you still can't perform X, y and Z at the end of the day, then so be it. Right. I mean compartments, that's an easy one. You throw a little strap on it, right, and you're able to pull it down. But when you're pulling a hose off of like a pierce truck at least the older ones were so fricking tall. Yeah, I get that it's hard for a smaller, weight, shorter person to pull the lines off, especially to pull it quick and efficient.

Speaker 2: 56:58

Now, when it comes down to that, too, I wholeheartedly believe. Going back to the academy and talking about you know pipe dreams, like what we wish things were different, or you know if we were king of the day, or whatever things along those lines. But when it comes down to like the physical ability of these recruits, is there anything that you think that we're lacking prior to them coming to the academy to get them ready? Because we talked about in your intro, like you started the nest, right, I said that, correctly, right, so that was, that was something that you decided to do, right for the American fire service because of the times that we're in. So, your opinion, what are we lacking for the kids coming into the academy prior to them showing up for so they're prepared for, say, that day one in your face, attention to detail, stuff.

Speaker 1: 57:39

So, yeah, we created that one because, uh, you know, during COVID nobody was allowed to ride, nobody was able to get out and train and get in gear, um, but we were still exploding departments around here where we were hiring.

Speaker 1: 57:51

So they were coming in with no ride time, no experience with culture, no physical fitness really. So that was our avenue. I mean, despite all the COVID stuff that was going on, we kind of disregarded those rules. But we yeah, we had a cache of stuff that I was able to collect old gear that was getting tossed out, whatever. Over years I had this stuff in my garage.

Speaker 1: 58:11

We, my wife and I, decided just to invite people that we thought had potential to our house. We would get them in all the gear that we could, and fortunately we lived right on top of a big old hill, so it was almost like having a tower right in our front yard. We had a green belt on the bottom, we'd pull hose and all sorts of stuff. So that was a good way to start getting guys prepared for it. I think one thing, at least in my department.

Speaker 1: 58:36

I know our department as a whole has the same mentality here. So it's not a knock on our department as much as the city restrains us from doing a combine, which seems like I think almost every single city now in the academy has some form of pre-academy or combine concept and it's pretty much a night and day difference. Man, you can see the recruits that have gone through a combine and that you guys have validated physically, because they do show up and they perform in the academy, whereas we don't always get that luxury because we don't get to preview. We don't get to see what they can do physically, we just have to go off of maybe their interviews or whatever you know.

Speaker 2: 59:15

So you would prefer again king of the day, right? You would prefer that you would have some sort of extreme physical agility pre-test.

Speaker 1: 59:25

Yeah, other than the CPAT, the CPAT's super basic, whatever yeah, I'm just joking we have. If we're going to trust these people to do their job, if we think they're going to be successful in the academy, if we have to live with them and work with them for the next 25, 30 plus years, we've got to be able to validate this somehow. Right. And again, they have day one they could be on that once in a lifetime call where again, fire and victims don't care how much time you have on how much experience you have, you are expected to perform. Victims don't care how much time you have on how much experience you have, you are expected to perform. So you better be at the top of your game all the time. So some kind of physical validation beforehand would be great. I also personally think that the one and two should be a requirement. I think getting into this Think of any other profession.

Speaker 1: 1:00:09

You have to go to school. If you want to be a nurse, you have to put yourself through school, get the credentials and then go apply, whereas the fire service is like the one thing where you can hire Joe Blow off the street these days. Have them do a couple interviews and boom, they're now in an academy. They've never been in gear. In today's culture, how many recruits do we have They've never even been on a ride along? They've never foot stepped foot into your fire station, like that blows my mind. That is so freaking wrong, I think, in my opinion, because we have no validation of what are their abilities, what's their personality like, what's their integrity like, and I think if you required people to have a one and two, it would weed out a lot of people right off the get go.

Speaker 1: 1:00:58

Either they're not meant to be in the gear, they don't have the right attitude, whatever right. And at least when they come into a full-time academy now, they have an expectation and they know what they're going to have to do. They've been in gear, they've done the basic skills. We can shorten up how much time we spend on MCSs and we can spend more time on real-world, functional stuff. Right, no more parking lot fires. Right, actually go into building fires. So, yeah, those are the two things I would do require more certs coming into it, or more education and then more physical fitness. Man, back when, when we kind of our timeframe when we got hired, we almost had a degree in fire science before we got hired because it would take us two, three, four, five years of testing our butts off everywhere to get a job. And nowadays you barely have your EMT. You test once, maybe twice, boom, you get a job. So completely different culture coming into this.

Speaker 2: 1:01:44

So what's your opinion then, since you just said you wish that there was a more physical aspect of the hiring process and then obviously starts prior to and everything else. So you just and I agree with you we should require all that stuff, but again, for the candidate requires their commitment, their time. We all know we're, we're all facing the same recruitment issues right now. So, with that said, you're, you're going to lower your numbers even more than what you're getting right now.

Speaker 1: 1:02:15

What do you?

Speaker 2: 1:02:16

feel about that. I think you'd lower the numbers but raise the quality. Okay, so it's okay. And I agree with you because the city I work for, the fire chief, can say, hey, I want a list of 15, but the cadre members that run our combine, if they only get 12, they give him a list of 12 and he supports them and says okay, because they say these are the only ones that we're willing to make firemen for our city and he goes okay, we'll do another process, whatever later to get the additional bodies. So I like the fact that they hold that standard.

Speaker 2: 1:02:46

But again, it's something that I think we're all facing across the nation right now is the lack of people that want to do this job. So we have to be more picky. But and I agree with you, we should never lower our standards or make it easier to get in the academy, because you've experienced it now, it's now harder for you, right as a recruit training officer, to get this person up to speed compared to the one that went through all this stuff, is dialed ready to rock and roll already has fire one and two, went through a combine and literally is just trying to learn as much as they can.

Speaker 1: 1:03:17

Yeah, and then ultimately it puts so much more strain on us as a company officer, because now I almost have to babysit a brand new guy. If I don't know him, I can't trust him until I see him in action. Right, and the things that I see sometimes are like and the things that I see sometimes are like holy crap, like you're going to kill yourself if you go out on your own. So, yeah, I think it just it's not a good system right now, but I get it. We're facing things that challenges that we've never had before. Right, recruitment is down, but opportunities are up Big time. The needs are there, cities are expanding. We got to fill the gaps. So I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:03:55

I don't have a, I don't have exactly the answers for that, I think. I think it would also lower that fear of the lawsuits. I think, too, inside the academy, because these people, these candidates, these recruits that have been successful now put so much time and effort into it that they're, they're gonna be successful in the academy.

Speaker 1: 1:04:13

And, since you bring that up, I'm curious of the lawsuits that have come out of some academies or of probationary people. I wonder how much time they spent in the fire station excuse me before they got hired, like, do they really understand what they're getting into? Do they understand the culture? Do they know what the job's about? My guess would be no, yeah. So I'm curious. Maybe they're the brand new guys or have spent very little time got into it, and now it's a shelter shock and they're going oh my God, what is this? And now their feelings are hurt and then they all they know is well, I'm just going to go sue and make some money, make an easy buck, and then bounce.

Speaker 2: 1:04:48

You know, right, it's just a wholehearted, it is a.

Speaker 2: 1:04:50

It's not a generational thing I'm trying to stop saying that, right, it is a individual thing.

Speaker 2: 1:04:55

When it comes down to and I believe it's exactly what you were saying we're not making it difficult enough to get to the academy. And then we're running into the issues where we're having recruits that are those kind of members where they've always been successful their entire life because they've been walked through everything you know. So now, all of a sudden, they're on their own for the first time anywhere between 18 to 25 years old, right, and they're doing it on their own, on their own accord, without their folks or grandparents or whatever the case might be, or someone holding their hand. And then, when they're not successful, for the very first time, it's all of a sudden everyone else's fault. Right, because they've always been successful, because and again, the way that society is, or how parents are today's day and age, you're a parent, I'm a parent, right, but it is, we're not. We're a lot easier on the generation or the public now, because, again, across the nation, everyone's feelings matter. They don't Again my opinion, right?

Speaker 1: 1:05:57

I think we've lost that lottery ticket concept. Right yeah, we had to earn it, we had to get out, we had to ride, we had to volunteer, we had to take classes, we had to educate ourselves, we had to do a lot of work. For again, that two to five year period typically sometimes longer for some people and now they don't have to do the grind to get a job. It's too easy. So they don't necessarily appreciate it for what it is.

Speaker 2: 1:06:22

There you go, and especially for a career that you're talking to do, minimum 25 years in our system, from day one when you get hired, that's what you're required to work now. 25 years in our system, um, from from day one when you get hired, that's what you're required to work now. So I mean, that's that's a lot to ask for somebody to commit to a department right Without getting that buy-in prior. I think so, um, well, let's uh say we've been, we've been yapping for over an hour here, so I want to kind of start winding down to get to the questions. But I really want to ask you this so, for the people listening, especially the guys that are either in their infancy on the job and maybe looking at going to a different department or a larger department or somebody trying to get hired right now, what your opinion again, what would be your keys to success right After they get that offer to be successful through a American Fire Academy? Right Right now, what would your keys to success be?

Speaker 1: 1:07:14

So once somebody gets the offer, yeah, so they get the offer.

Speaker 2: 1:07:16

They're in Academy. What would you tell them before they go in on day one? Hey, this is a. This is my opinion. These are your keys to success. Follow these and you'll probably be good.

Speaker 1: 1:07:28

For anybody who's about to go into Academy. You got to get, as soon as you get gear, and even before you got to start getting in shape um, a lot of shoulders, a lot of legs, a lot of cardio, um, super sets If you're in the gym, just constant reps, high reps, Um. And I think you got to get out to those stations, you got to do some ride alongs, you got to learn your, your department, you got to learn the people, you got to learn the equipment that you have. And if you have the opportunity to do skills courses, again using the equipment that's at the stations or stuff that you might have around the house, or even going on a ride and doing skills courses with the guys, just start kind of inserting yourself into that department. I think that would be awesome before you come here and start.

Speaker 2: 1:08:08

What about the mental aspect of it? What would you tell them mentally to prepare them, to help them be successful? Maybe a mindset or a modality you just got to?

Speaker 1: 1:08:16

come in positive man, like, yeah, composure. I'll say that that's one thing that I see. A lot Guys do a skills course. They're tired, they want to lay down, they do what I pick on CrossFit. You want to be a CrossFitter? Go do CrossFit, but we're not going to do that shit here. Where you finish a workout, you drop on the ground, you sweat all over the floor and you're huffing and puffing and you look like you're dying, right, if you do that on a fire ground, you come out after a bottle and you drop your bottles. They're banging everywhere on the floor. You're stri to send you packing, send you home, right? You don't want to be that guy.

Speaker 1: 1:08:49

So guess what? Everybody here is tired. Everyone's done the same bit of work that you just did. Look around you. If you're the only one that looks like crap, maybe you just need to suck it up. Buttercup. You know like have a pair. You need to smile, get into that happy mindset somewhere in your head and embrace the suck.

Speaker 1: 1:09:09

This job is not necessarily easy. It's not fun. At times. It's dirty, grueling, gut-wrenching stuff, especially when you get into the salvage and overhaul and you're lifting and moving. Yeah, it's going to suck, but guess what? We're all doing it together. We're all in that trench together, so embrace it, have fun, smile, enjoy what you're doing, take pride in what you're doing and know that for somebody out there it's going to matter.

Speaker 1: 1:09:36

And I would help them understand that. No matter what people are watching you on and off duty all the time, the fire service is very small, so firemen are going to see you and all your neighbors are going to see you coming and going. They're going to know what you do. And remember that Maltese that you wear is borrowed. It's not yours to keep, it's yours to borrow and make it better and pass it on to the next person. And never forget the moment that you're in right now. Don't forget where you come from being nervous, being scared, not knowing really what to do and kind of embrace that and keep that in the back of your head for the rest of your career. Right, it's an honor and a privilege to be here and it will always be that way, because there's really no job or career out there that is better than this. Right, no one else is going to throw their babies at you and trust you to take care of them.

Speaker 2: 1:10:26

No, it's true. Honor, and I want to resonate that again because it's a good way to to end this, uh, this episode. It is a honor, right, what else did you say? And a privilege and a privilege. Yeah, it's an honor and a privilege to do this fucking job.

Speaker 2: 1:10:40

Right, the public trust us. No one else is coming. Right, it is us, that's it. Like guys like joke all the time or whatever you know, like the cliches like, oh, we're coming, or you know no one's coming for you, but it's fucking true. Right, the buck stops at us. Because when everyone else fails, even in no shade on our PD brothers, right, but when they don't know what to do, who do they call? Right, we don't have, and actually we do. Right, you're on a team, I'm on a team too. The only other 911 the fire department has is technical rescue right, and, but outside of that Special ops Right, special ops, that's it. But we are. We have to figure it out and no matter what it is, the public expects us to figure it out in a timely, safe and effective manner, right?

Speaker 1: 1:11:23

Yeah, and you mentioned anyone else maybe looking to change departments. I would encourage those that maybe work for a department you don't want to be with, whether it's because it's smaller. There's not really opportunity, there's not growth. Maybe you don't like it or maybe you just really have wanted to be somewhere else from the get-go. Do it.

Speaker 1: 1:11:40

Yeah, guys are going to talk crap and maybe they're going to harass you. They're going to talk poorly of you from your own department. They're going to think that you're a traitor, whatever. Who cares? They're not the ones paying your bills. They're not the ones taking care of your family. They're not the ones that are making your, your mindset, happy right In life. Um, so you got to do what's best for you, your family and your career. If you're chasing opportunity, go to a growing department. If you need more financial stability, go to a department that's more stable, that has better wages, has better benefits. If you want to go somewhere because you have family or friends there, go. Whatever makes you happy, go for it, because no one else is there running your career. You are, and in a few years they're going to totally forget about it and move on anyway. Right.

Speaker 2: 1:12:25

Yeah, and in all reality, we don't. If you're miserable, we don't want you. You know, like you said, like where, what, what department makes you happy? Because the department you want to work for in the department I want to work for are different for different reasons. Right, but are we working at the correct departments for the correct reasons? That's all it should be.

Speaker 1: 1:12:42

Yeah, and if people are going to give you hell for wanting to better your life, then you know what. Screw them. They're not really one of your friends and one of your brothers. Anyway, I would disregard those people. They shouldn't matter, in my opinion.

Speaker 2: 1:12:55

No, it's, and someone says it. It's like if you're not willing to take advice from them, you shouldn't listen to the criticism.

Speaker 1: 1:13:00

You know so yeah, you need to be in an environment that's supportive, right, like some departments, man, they're so selfish, especially in the testing world. It's like if you're testing with anybody else, you're out. It's either all us or nobody. Yeah, right, um, you're either in or out, whereas, like with our cadets, we preach to them like we, you better be testing everywhere. Right, we want you to get hired. We want you to get a job. Yes, we want to hire the best of you. We can get you hired in another department out here in the Valley. That's another friend that we can always reach out to, maybe years down the road. Right, cause the fire service is one giant network. Right, the more people we have in our network, the better especially the good dudes.

Speaker 2: 1:13:37

You know, the more good dudes we have. It doesn't matter what department you work for. If you're a fireman, you're a fireman, right.

Speaker 1: 1:13:44

Your just that one department Correct?

Speaker 2: 1:13:46

Yeah, exactly. Well, good shit, dude. Um, is there anything before we get to the questions of season one, anything that we didn't talk about that you want to hit on?

Speaker 1: 1:13:54

Um no, I would say if you have for uh company officers, if you have the opportunity to go to an Academy, I would say go Um. Especially if you haven't really been in a teaching role um prior to. I think that'd be an awesome experience. It's definitely going to rejuvenate you, I think, to see all these young guys coming in um that are full of energy and excited and uh it. It gives you an opportunity to share the knowledge that you have Um again. This knowledge is not ours to keep, it's ours to share, and I think by teaching you also reinforce all the skills that you have.

Speaker 2: 1:14:32

Teaching is the best way to learn. I think we say it all the time and I'm glad we're ending with that, because I feel the same way. I have never had such a great. I've had a great career so far, so same amount of time on the job as you have, and this is probably. I'm probably living my best days now, being a recruit training officer for the last academy and then for the next one. This has been a career goal from the day I became a fireman. I'm like I always want to get back. I'm like I want to make it as a recruit training officer one day, like that was. That was always on my bucket list and we talked about the grind, the schedule and everything like that. With all that said, I would do it for the rest of my career if I had the opportunity. I would never leave the academy because of the opportunities, like you said, to give back to the next generation, to see those kids progress and then, more importantly, to see someone that didn't know how to do the job.

Speaker 1: 1:15:21

and then they're graduating, we're pinning them and we feel comfortable that they're to do a good job at that 8.05 AM on that freaking good job that they get with whoever they got hired by you know, yeah, and shout out to 24 three man Cause it was questionable at times if they were going to get some tasks, but it seemed like maybe the last two weeks of the Academy everybody seemed to finally click Like everybody got it, like we weren't really yelling at them about certain tasks. They were able to accomplish what we gave them and it was really, really rewarding to see it all finally come together at the very end, and so I felt extremely confident and proud to send all of them off.

Speaker 2: 1:16:00

You know, yeah, and I felt the same way with all the, all the cities that were involved. I felt comfortable with every single one of them. I'm like they're. I felt really good at the end, going that they're going to do a good job when they get out into the field and they're going to have a great probationary year and, you know, be hopefully studs in 10, 15 years from now and maybe back here at the Academy doing exactly what we're doing right now for these guys. So good, all right. So questions for season one. So the why is what we always start with, so the why. Questions for season one. So the why is what we always start with. So the why. We ask the why when we get into the fire service. We talked about that. We asked the why when we're trying to become a recruit training officer. So the why but this is a why for Dan Malinowski why did you decide to become a fireman? Did you get bit by the bug, like what? What is your story? Why'd you pick this career?

Speaker 1: 1:16:46

So deep down personal thought to the core is, uh, more of a religious one, right? But um way back, when someone was willing to die for me and lay their life out there, why would I not be willing to do the same for my neighbor or my brother?

Speaker 1: 1:17:01

well, there you go um and again, not trying to beat it on the head or anything, but I'm Christian and basically it's told to live your life to be Christ-like right. So I want to do that for my fellow man. So in high school, when I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do is pretty much either military or fire right. What kind of acts of service can I do in my life to live a meaningful, purposeful life? So I started looking for it. Well, early on in high school I was a lifeguard. We had a lot of interactions with the fire department there, with Phoenix Fire. They would respond to certain things that we had. And then my dad was a firefighter in the Air Force. Way back when he actually got out to get hired by Phoenix, got the call, but just prior to he ended up breaking his back so he wasn't able to go forward with it. So he always kind of talked about it, you know, and I'm pretty sure he had a lot and kind of pushing me in that direction, of course. But I'm glad it all worked out Cause yeah, this is definitely the route I took early on and that's all I've known as an adult.

Speaker 1: 1:18:05

I literally grew up as a fireman, and so no shade on any of those young guys. I tell people all the time that are coming right out of high school, still living at home, like, yeah, I was you. I get it. Like it's scary, it's a big world, you don't know anything going on Like I didn't operate a lot of power tools when I was younger. I learned that here. I learned how to cook. Here I learned how to do all sorts of odds and ends and things through the fire service. So it's definitely possible for those young guys to move on.

Speaker 1: 1:18:33

But yeah, that's how I got into the fire service. I believe it's a true calling and it's the best job where you can help in so many ways. Right Like everyone in interviews says, I want to help people, right, okay, well, what does that mean? Right Like it's, I want to do whatever somebody needs of me. It makes me fulfilled and feel happy to service somebody else. Right Now you can throw some adrenaline into that by fighting fire and doing rescues and doing all this cool shit that we do the hell. Yeah, sign me up Right, If I can help and have fun. Yeah, that's what.

Speaker 2: 1:19:06

I want to do nice. I mean it sounds like um, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like, with answering that question, like you basically became.

Speaker 2: 1:19:15

You became a man while you're in the fire service like you learned how to be a man, probably probably helped you become a good father too. Oh yeah, you know, like you said, you literally learned how to cook and everything in in the fire service. So that's again another how much different we are, are as a collective group, than any other profession out there. I just wholeheartedly believe the military is probably the closest, but again, they seem to be.

Speaker 1: 1:19:37

The military has a lot of different things, but they're more specific, task oriented, right, especially on depending on what their job is Right, whereas our job is everything. And, as one of my mentors always said, the firefighters are jack of all trades, master of none. So we have to be good at so many different things so that we can respond to any call and help Mr and Mrs Smith with whatever problem they have. We may not be the absolute best or the masters of it, may not be our specialty, but collectively between the four people on our crew or between all the units on scene, we will figure out a way to solve your problem, and I think that's so unique and so awesome. For what?

Speaker 2: 1:20:19

we do. Yeah, and I agree with you. It's like you said, no matter what happens, we, we do not leave until we solve the problem. It doesn't, it will continue to call resources if it's a resource issue, or subject matter experts or whatever, or spec op teams, whatever the case might be, but we are there until we're gonna solve their issue. I mean, our job is customer service. You said it 8,000 different ways, you know so I love it. So to piggyback on top of that then, so always wanted to serve. So then the who, let's go into your fireman, right? You've been in the American fire service now for 18 years, so that's a long time. Doesn't have to be a fireman, doesn't have to be related to the fire service, but so far as of today, who has been the most influential person in your fire service career?

Speaker 1: 1:21:10

So again, because of how many hats we wear, it's impossible to say one person right. So there's numerous here. So forgive me, but I would say Chief Rand. He's retired now from our department and, although his reputation might be a little confrontational in some aspects, but I think he was what I always looked at as a fireman's fireman. He seemed to have knowledge and expertise in everything, whether it was TRT, hazmat, firefighting, every aspect of what we do in the fire service. He seemed to know what it was. So I really looked up to that. And then he was a big part in the one and two.

Speaker 1: 1:21:43

When I initially started, I went through it. When I started teaching it, I was a mentor under his leadership and his concept in training was always yeah, we can be as smart as the book, but when shit hits the fan, where's the book going? It's going right out the window. And now you got to get down and get dirty and go to work, right. So his whole mindset was about functional training, not so much about the MCS type training. You know and I've always loved that, I've hung on to that, whether it's on the fire side, the medical side, whatever I've taught, let's be hands-on, let's be real. I don't care what your cert says, I don't care that you passed the class, I care what you're going to do with it. What are you going to do when you're out in the field, when you have nobody there to help you, nobody to guide you or instruct you? It's up to you. What are you going to do about it? Right?

Speaker 1: 1:22:32

So yeah that was it. And then, as I mentioned before, mike Patton on the medic side man. I learned so much from him I still do and a lot of those, especially the older days when I first started teaching. All the instructors there at the college were awesome dude. I would always sit in on their classes while we're waiting for them to start the labs and I would just listen, watch, observe and I think I gathered a little bit of something from all of them.

Speaker 1: 1:22:59

But specifically Mike Patton, on our own department, I would say Captain Gillum, he's one of our ladder captains. He's like the original guy in the department. One of our ladder captains. He's like the original guy in the department. He he probably hands down for sure put the most investment into me as I was testing for captain. He spent most of the time like really whiteboard type stuff conversations, tactics, all that stuff. So huge shout out and huge appreciation for that. And I really learned from him about investing into your people, no matter what it is like. Yeah, I will help you.

Speaker 1: 1:23:32

And again, as an instructor and all the classes I've taught, I always tell people I will do whatever it takes and I will bend over backwards for you as long as you put in the effort, right. And I got Chief Reese. I've really grown up listening to him from Tempe and he's done so many lectures about integrity. I got Chief Reese I've really grown up listening to him from Tempe and he's done so many lectures about integrity and how to conduct yourself and I just think he is a very honest, true person with a lot of integrity Right. So I've always looked up to that. And then Chief Scheiple I worked under him as a captain and one thing that really stuck with me when we come on shift, shift wars always start because you always start bitching about the shift before.

Speaker 1: 1:24:16

Oh hey, shift into this, be, shift into that, blah, blah, blah, right. Or his concept was I don't care what the problem is, we're on shift now. Now it's our problem, now we got to fix it right. It doesn't matter, just take care of it. And I think I've used that work ethic ever since. And then, of course, I got to shout out to my dad because he's the hardest working man I've ever known in my life. His work ethic is crazy, insane. I mean, he's the guy. Even at graduation he came to check it out here at family night and afterwards he was folding all the chairs. He's just a spectator. He doesn't have to clean up our academy and fold chairs and stuff. But that's just the guy he is so, again, just wanting to help people. That's what makes us tick and I definitely got that from him.

Speaker 2: 1:25:01

And it kind of seems like I mean subconsciously, consciously, whatever the case might be that you even said it, he probably pushed you towards the be that you even said it, he probably pushed you into, towards the direction that you are right now. You know, with or without saying it. Awesome, because that's something that obviously was his career goal too. Right, um, all right. So, favorite fire department tradition, but, more importantly, why?

Speaker 1: 1:25:23

uh, dinner time, family dinner, okay. Yeah, I really look forward to that, where you still have that traditional style where everybody sits together, everybody's just hanging out, talking, getting to know each other, especially when you're done eating and you're just kicking back chilling, right. I feel like that's my time. I'm always on the go, go, go, go, go, right, I have a bajillion things I got to get done, tons of projects, but at least that moment right there, try to be intentional about keeping the phone down and just engaging in the moment, engaging with your people. Get to know their personal lives a little bit more, right as individuals. Yeah, that's always been my favorite time.

Speaker 2: 1:25:57

So it's that family aspect of it and then that kind of slowing down, just enjoying the boys, basically, yep, absolutely I love it All right. Last question, this is my favorite All right, so snap your fingers, right. No sweat equity. Something changes right now. Right, it can be whatever you want it to be positive, negative, whatever it is. So if you could snap your fingers, that one wish affects the American fire service, what would it be? What would you change?

Speaker 1: 1:26:24

I would change quote what I call the game right, the the quote what I call the game right the game that recruits or people have to play to get hired and the game that is played with probationary people.

Speaker 2: 1:26:35

So explain the game on what you don't like or like or whatever, right?

Speaker 1: 1:26:38

Now I appreciate and I understand the concept of earning your stripes and kind of playing that booter role, being the first to get up, the first to go down, the first one on the truck, um, you're the one that's kind of doing a little bit more than everybody else, or you're the first to jump to it. Um, but I hate the negative side of it, where people like you can never do anything right. Everyone's down on you, everyone's nitpicking every little thing about you. Um, like, what I tell all my booters is I don't care about the dust bunny in the corner of the room, I care that. You know how to become a fireman, I know how. I want you to be able to do your job when we need you to do it Right. If, if the next shift wants to bitch because you forgot a trash, can I don't care because, guess what, you work for me right now. You're not working for them. I need you to know your job. So I'd rather you go out and train, work out, do all these things and then, if there's time, let's go do that. I hate how, because you're a booter, you're not allowed to go sit down, you're not allowed to relax, you're not allowed to take a nap. Screw that man. You're doing more work than all of us and we're all gonna go take a nap because we're dog-ass tired, especially day two after being up all night on our 48 schedule. Take a fricking nap, go do some study time or whatever it takes. Man Like you got to relax too, because I need to depend on you throughout the rest of the shift.

Speaker 1: 1:27:55

If, if we need you, um, like I had one captain um in my early days, we would have reserves come out or a booter come out and we would all sit down after lunch and watch a movie and usually take a nap in the recliner and the new guy would always be cleaning stuff. And that captain would tell him like, hey, man, come sit down, come hang out with us, watch a movie. And of course they'd play the game. They go. No, I don't want to be like no, listen, man, sit your ass down or pack your shit and go home, because we can break bread together, we can run calls together, we could potentially die together, but you're telling me we can't watch a fricking movie. Other like, come on, wait, come on, dude, um. And again, that's how you kind of build that camaraderie and you build that trust within each other. Um, so take a freaking moment just to hang out with us, right? That's the stuff that I would.

Speaker 1: 1:28:36

I like to see more of. Um, and the hypocrisy. Like, for example, you go to a station and if that new guy drops an f-bomb, everyone's like oh my god, who are you and why are you talking that way? Yeah, but we'll drop 50 of them just before that, right, like, come on, dude. Um, I don't know and I I don't like how we expect them to do all the work all the time by themselves. Um, again, I'm more of on the lines of I want to lead by example, so I want to be out there doing stuff with them, whether it's training or it's cleaning, I don't care, but let's do it as a crew, let's do it together. We're all getting paid. This is all of our jobs, it's not just your job. Again, I think there should be a mindset where they do just a little bit more or they're the first to get to it Right, just to earn their spot. But I think we need to have a better happy medium there.

Speaker 2: 1:29:28

Yeah, Well, I had a, I had a captain and I like, I like what he would say. All the time, especially the booters or or guys that were super fresh off probation are still in that booter role or that mentality. But he would say, being the best janitor in a department doesn't mean anything to me. He's like I need you to be the best fireman department right now and obviously there's a line, right, I agree with you. There's a lot of the game that I don't like.

Speaker 2: 1:29:56

There is tradition to it and there is stuff that I believe that we should hold on to that probie and booter role. But again, like you said, expecting them to do everything, no, no-transcript, and it's it. It, it's just that that outlook on it but again, you know it's a, I agree with you like throwing shade on our brand new guys to that extreme measure. It's like what are we showing? We preach to them you just joined a family, right. But then we show them their first year that it's a well, it's a dysfunctional family, which I like, but that's okay. But then we show them that we, we fuck in, there are stepkids and we hate them, right, and they have to earn our love.

Speaker 1: 1:31:10

And then once they earn our but or whatever, but like, why, why? Like, yeah, that whole idea of you have to earn respect to get respect, I think is so ass backwards. I should always show you up front respect as a human, as a person, right, and in return I expect you to show me respect as well, and then, if we have that mutual um give and take, then the world will be a better place, right? Um, I also hate when we have like that brand new guy that comes on as a very first ride along, has no instruction beforehand, he just wants to be a fireman. No family, no friends and, god forbid, he shows up in just regular street clothes. He doesn't really look the part. Maybe his hair is a little moppy, he didn't shave whatever. Instead of talking shit and just discrediting him from the very beginning, did anybody talk to him? Anybody try to mentor him? You think, hey, bro, so you want to do this, right?

Speaker 2: 1:31:49

All right let's sit down and let's talk.

Speaker 1: 1:31:51

Like. These are some expectations that I just want to help you with now before you burn yourself later. Right, I don't think we do enough of that. We're so quick to judge and cash aid and write people off and like we just got to give them a chance.

Speaker 1: 1:32:06

Dude, I've seen so many people, um come through where, like, there's one particular person I'm thinking of right now, I 100% discredited this person from the get go. It looked like you had a literally a floor mop on his head for hair. Um, he like I offered him to stay and hang out with us longer and he's like I'll go, cause it was a slow day. He was bored. He's like all right, fine, you want to leave? Whatever, I guess you don't want to be here, right?

Speaker 1: 1:32:29

Well, he came in to interview for one of the cadets and I even told the board ahead of time like, oh, this guy's going to be a waste of your time. I'm sorry, not worth it. Yeah, but we'll entertain it. Whatever, dude, he actually got hired and now he's a fireman, right, like holy crap, I tell him all the time you are my most improved candidate ever, right, and if you can do it and I say this jokingly because I love him. But if you can do it, anybody can do it, and I'm not going to discredit anybody up front like I did to you and I even told him that I'm sorry, I had the wrong impression, my bad, and thank you for proving me wrong, cause you stuck through it, you grinded and now you earn this spot. You know Right and you're probably you're probably friends now, right?

Speaker 1: 1:33:16

Oh yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 2: 1:33:17

Yeah, totally yeah. That's a freaking fire service for you. I love it, man.

Speaker 1: 1:33:20

And the other thing I wish I could change is just involvement. From there's this weird concept of well, I put in all my effort to get hired and once I got hired, now I got mine, and I think every union out there can attest to this that, like, maybe 10% or less of your members actually show up and participate. So now you're putting all this work on the backs of a few people that will benefit the whole department. Well, if everybody would just do a little bit more, maybe those guys don't have to break their back so much. Maybe they can spend more time with their families and not be doing all the work for everyone else to benefit from it.

Speaker 2: 1:33:58

Right, and that's I mean that that goes outside of the union. Also, that just goes for anything the department does when we give back, because I personal experience, like the department I work for. Like you, if you're around long enough, you end up seeing that it's like the same 15 dudes that do every committee members.

Speaker 2: 1:34:18

Yeah, fame training people and it's, there's no favoritism. It's just the same guys that are willing to give back over and over and over again. And the shitty thing is is eventually and I've seen it, it too where the guys do it so much and they spread themselves so so thin to the point where they end up hating the fucking job. Right, or they leave, or they're so jaded that they drop out of everything, Right, and then it's just, and it's because I and again my opinion I feel like what we do is these kids get out of the academy, they're doing their booter year, and then we freaking because we tell them say yes more than you say no, which I agree with. But I give them a caveat and say don't be afraid to say no, right, Because you still need to honor your family and your friends and everything else outside of this profession.

Speaker 2: 1:35:04

But what we do is and this is just my personal experience is these kids come out of the academy and they end up on a group text and they're expected to do everything right over and over and over again. By the time they're done, they're just freaking, spent and they don't want to do anything anymore. I don't blame them and then, but it's okay, because then the next academy comes out and they abuse them, and then they abuse the next group, Right, and we it's, it's, it's a broken system. I just don't have the answers how to fix to get more guys involved. I just don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:35:31

Well, that goes back to that booter concept too. I've heard guys literally say well, I was treated like shit on my booter year. I'm gonna treat the new guy like shit because what I got, they gotta get, right. Okay, when's the cycle gonna break, man? And how many people especially even on this podcast and all around have started talking about mental health, right? How many of us know or have been affected by somebody who either tried or did successfully kill themselves? Right? When is that shit going to stop? I think, as firefighters in the fire service, we are really good at coming together during tragedies, right, we are awesome and we're such a tight family when bad things happen. Well, maybe we can prevent the bad things from happening in the first place If we didn't treat everybody like garbage all through probation and through the rest of their careers, right, like, why don't we start treating people like family sooner and doing things together as family members do and we all carry our own weight, and maybe we can start preventing a lot of that shit down the road.

Speaker 2: 1:36:25

Hell yeah, hell yeah, all right, brother. Well, listen that. Uh, that that wraps up our episode. Dude, and it was freaking. I really appreciate your time coming down sitting down, uh, talking about the RTI. I know you have very limited time because you're you're getting ready to start another class, right? So I know you have a huge pack in order. I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm excited, I'm going to be in that with you with before we sign off.

Speaker 1: 1:36:44

No, I just want to say thank you again for having me out here. I really appreciate that you'd bring me on to your podcast. As I told you, when you guys first started this, I was so happy to see a group of people with the Fools program, copper State. It's awesome to see that there are still firemen out there that still love the job and still want to learn and train. And I've seen so many different department members come to these meetings that you guys had and it's very inspirational.

Speaker 1: 1:37:16

You know, and as you said, in some cases too, if you really want to grow you have to leave your own department. Your department only knows what they know, because we run kind of the same type of calls, the same type of construction, whatever. But when you start getting out there, there's a whole new world, and if you can bring any of that back to your department, make it better. I mean, by all means do it. So yeah, and in the intro part of the things that I wanted to highlight was just working with the original guys. I'm a few years off from that first group that started my department, but I've worked with them for many, many years. When did your department start? I'm just talking about that 2000, 2001. Okay, so it became a full-time town. Right, I got it, and prior to that you said it was the reserves right.

Speaker 1: 1:38:00

It was like volunteer with Buckeye Valley. Buckeye, they were one thing, then they split, Then it was town of Buckeye and we had a lot of reserves. We actually had a lot of captains from other departments that would come work as reserves for us.

Speaker 2: 1:38:24

And that's where my mentors, my senior guys, learned from those reserve captains that had tons of experience from Sun City, Phoenix, everywhere else. So you basically have guys that have single-digit badge numbers that you worked for. That's pretty crazy A lot of guys don't get that experience.

Speaker 1: 1:38:32

Yeah, I mean I'm 78, um, which is still only double digits, and, like I said, I believe captain Gilliam's number one, um. So yeah, it was. It's been great to learn from those guys secondhand what they learned from the captains before them. Um, I think our department was very, very young still is but when I started everybody was young. They were super into physical fitness, super into training. Everybody was laying canvas, just train, train, train all the time, right? So I got a great opportunity to be a part of that group and then growing through all the experiences that we had, the growing pains, whatever, has been quite a journey, but it's been worth it because now we're reaping the benefits of everything that we've done. And again, that's part of like I wish there was more involvement of these newer guys Cause, like you, guys only have a job because of what those guys and what we did in this department to grow and to expand and make sure that you got a job. So you kind of owe it to the department in the city to give back, right.

Speaker 2: 1:39:35

So because, if not, that wouldn't have even been an option. You guys would still be reserves or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:39:39

And we're like one generation away from having all of our shit ripped away from us, right, benefits or pay or whatever Right? So you have to constantly stay on top of it, um, if you want to keep the stuff that we're given. Um, and if you want to make it better, the only way to make it better is to get involved.

Speaker 2: 1:39:54

There you go.

Speaker 1: 1:39:55

I love it, but yeah thank you so much for having me here. I appreciate it and thanks for anybody who actually sat around and listened to it.

Speaker 2: 1:40:00

No, no, good, good, good stuff. Dude, I um, like I said, I again I appreciate your time, I know you're a busy man, but thank you so much. And again, like, if you guys take anything away from what Danny's talking about, get back to your departments, right, be the guy that's approachable, be the guy that that junior member can come up to. And then, but more importantly, when you get a little bit of time on the job and you start finding your niche within the fire department, capitalize on that right, become that subject matter expert and then start giving back and teaching, right, and then you would be amazed not only on how much that benefits your soul and how good it just makes you feel, but you become such a better fireman all the way around. Yeah, right. And then again, shameless plug, right, danny Malinowski, right here, he is a Copper State Fools member. We are here in the valley, right, but again, if you're not in the state of Arizona, we're the first active Fools Infinity Group in the state. But again, no matter where you're listening to, there's a Fool I guarantee there's a Fools near you or multiple companies Reach out to them, like-minded individuals. It's a wealth of knowledge.

Speaker 2: 1:41:02

And again, like what Danny's saying, it's just the firemanship learning from each other. And again, we cannot be on every single call. The good ones want to be but what's the next best thing? Be able to sit down with that guy and learn from their experiences and their calls. That way, when you do get it one day, you don't repeat their mistakes, you look like a stud and then you can teach from there on out. So thank you again, brother, and we will catch you guys in two more weeks. Have a good one. Thanks for joining us. Always remember the most important grab you'll make in your fire service career is saving a complacent firefighter from themselves. Catch you next episode.