Copper State Firemen Podcast
Copper State Firemen
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Fireman Steve O
Podcast for Firemen burning the ships of Complacency, Laziness, and Excuses. We are promoting love and passion for the job, encouraging eagerness, and mastering the craft of the Fire Service!
The information, opinions, values, recommendations, and ideas are of the host and individuals on this podcast, and are not affiliated or endorsed by the fire department, organization, or companies the individuals works for. This podcast is for general information only! Indorced by Copper State Fools and Solid Fondation team LLC.
Copper State Firemen Podcast
Mental Health and Peer Support in the Fire Service
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bradschriefer1282@gmail.com
What does it take to be a firefighter who not only battles flames but also champions mental health within the service? Meet Brad Schriefer, a third-generation fireman, who shares his 24-year journey in the American Fire Service and his evolution from a young volunteer to the first career captain at his station. Brad's story isn't just about fighting fires; it's about facing trauma, fostering peer support, and breaking down the old "suck it up" culture. This episode is a heartfelt conversation that highlights his personal struggles, triumphs, and the invaluable lessons learned from his mentors and peers.
Have you ever considered the emotional toll that first responders endure daily? Brad delves into his early experiences, recounting moments that left indelible marks on his soul, like his first traumatic encounter at just 16. He sheds light on the unspoken expectations and pressures within the fire service, where handling traumatic scenes is often seen as a badge of honor. Brad's candidness about his journey through these dark times and his commitment to peer support offers a raw and realistic look at the emotional challenges firefighters face.
How does one navigate the complexities of mental health in such a high-stress profession? Brad offers profound insights into his role in peer support teams and the transformative power of vulnerability and empathy. By sharing personal stories and practical strategies, he emphasizes the need for a supportive environment and mandatory mental health counseling. This episode is a must-listen for anyone connected to the fire service, as Brad's experiences and wisdom provide a roadmap for better mental health and resilience in this demanding field. Join us for an eye-opening discussion that underscores the critical importance of mental well-being in saving lives, including those of our brave firefighters.
They don't want to open up, they don't want to share it and be vulnerable, because in our culture it can be seen as a sign of weakness and unfortunately that that that sign of weakness then turns into helpless and hopeless. And when you get into that hole it's almost this sense of like I'm damaged goods, I can't be fixed, I'm stuck here forever.
Speaker 2:Nobody understands it and this is just where I live now. Welcome everybody. Copper State Fireman Podcast. This podcast is for firemen, burning the ships of complacency, laziness and excuses. We're promoting love and passion for the job, encouraging eagerness and mastering the craft of the fire service. Remember the information, opinion, values, recommendation and ideas are the host and the individuals of this podcast and are not affiliated or endorsed by the fire departments, organization or companies. The individuals work for. This podcast is for general information use only. Brought to you by the Copper State Fools and sponsored by Solid Foundation Team LLC. Let's go All right, welcome back. This is another episode of Copper State Fireman Podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm here with Brad Schriefer today. He's got 24 years in the American Fire Service, 19 of those years as a career fireman. His current rank is captain. Specialties held peer support team leader. So far, his career highlights His high school program was the first vo-tech program for fire, which is amazing. First career captain at one of the stations in the department.
Speaker 2:He works for Job titles in and out of the fire service. He's a paramedic. Well, he is a paramedic was a driver lieutenant, now captain. He is a Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute state certified instructor and he's been a recruit training officer. Big ticket items Brad's proud of is he's a a recruit training officer. Big Ticket Idols Brad's proud of is he's a third generation fireman. It's actually two grandfathers and his pops and him. So that's actually and Brad and your brother. Is that correct? Yes, and his brother's on the job. So it's a whole family affair. I freaking love that. The high school that his dad went to is currently in his first due, which is pretty awesome. His dad went to is currently in his first due, which is pretty awesome. He's proud to be an instructor for the same organization that his grandfather taught for for over 40 years ago. Brad also teaches as a support instructor for the high school program that he went through. He manages an annual charity softball event to raise money for the Children's Cancer Foundation in cooperation with the AA Affili affiliate program of the Baltimore Orioles. That's so cool.
Speaker 2:We'll touch on that a little bit. After his post-traumatic stress diagnosis, he joined the peer support team while we're actually sitting down today, we'll get into that and has climbed the ranks to team leader. He uses his traumatic experience and post-traumatic growth to help others navigate their trauma and build resilience before traumas. So, man, that's a lot on there. So, brad, first of all, thank you for taking time out of your day all the way across on the East Coast there. So, dude, what a great segue into exactly what we're talking about today. So the topic today is the peer support teams across the American Fire Service. But, dude, like, as long as you're comfortable sharing with the audience just what, what was your traumatic experience that kind of guided you down this road?
Speaker 1:Well, before we jump into that, Steve, you left out one little thing and you failed to mention that you and I actually worked together. Uh, how many years ago was?
Speaker 2:that, yeah, yeah, yeah, so we, we uh, so, yeah. So we grew up together. Uh, we cut our teeth together because I think you were probably a class before me, right? So I was, uh. January 2006 is when I got hired.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, that's a right when I came out of the academy. Yeah, Perfect.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you were a class right behind me. So yeah, he's been my brother from the East Coast, where I cut my teeth and learned to be a fireman. Great freaking fire department this guy works for too. So just yeah, thanks for pointing that out, brad, I appreciate you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I mean, I was really humble when you brought up the topic of me coming on the show. I think it's really cool and it shows you know how the fire department is. Just this giant network. You could go anywhere and we all know somebody, that somebody knows, but what? Maybe three degrees of separation, anywhere you go in this country.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you're the Kevin Bacon of life, right.
Speaker 1:Exactly the Kevin Bacon of the fire department, and you know. So you are three hours behind me and uh, we're reconnecting and uh, keeping the fire department stuff alive and well yeah, and I love it.
Speaker 2:And actually, brad, before we get into your story here, you know I really I love. Thank you for saying that. And that is exactly why this podcast exists right now. So this is sponsored by copper state fools, right, right, so quick, little, shameless plug. We are strictly here to unite firemen with common interest, and when I say that I mean I'm talking about the good ones. We want to get better. We want to leave the department better than we found it. These are all key buzzwords, right, but this is a true meaning, and when you listen to these guests on this podcast, you figure it out pretty quickly that they are passionate about the fucking job, right, and more importantly, whatever we're talking about for that subject, they are really an expert when it comes down to what their life experience and just time on the job. So, dude, brad, again thank you for your time. Brother, I know it's super early for both of us, but, dude, let's freaking get into it, man.
Speaker 2:So, again, kind of like I said, if you don't mind, like what, what's your story, dude? Like how'd you get into the peer support side? Like what, what happened on the job that that kind of sent you in that direction?
Speaker 1:So, uh, we'll, we'll go back even further, uh, back to when I was 15 years old, when I first joined the fire department as a volunteer. Uh, small town fire department fire department. Uh, my dad and my brother volunteered there. Um, hey, and you know, as a, as a 16 year old and starting to run calls, like you, you really have zero life experience and now you're thrust into this, this machine that has been running for hundreds of years. Uh, we all know, like, the cultural difference between the fire department and the regular world, right, we see all this stuff. So, at 16, you know, I'm starting to run these calls and I remember, like my first call where I saw this mangled dead body and, you know, 16 year old me in survival mode is like I don't, I don't want to see that. But the, the 16 year old me that has to prove myself to the 20 and 30 and 40 year old guys and and the ones that have been doing it for a long time, that this isn't their first radio. Now I gotta prove myself. So you get thrown into this internal dilemma of self-preservation. But now I have to. I have to nut up or shut up. And so, yeah, I remember one of the guys kind of pat me on the back and now we have to, I have to nut up or shut up. And so, yeah, I remember one of the guys kind of pat me on the back and now we got to get this mangled body out of a mashed up car and he's like, come on, kid, let's go. And I remember pushing back against his hand when he had it up against my back.
Speaker 1:And so you go and you do it and you're like nobody wants to see these things, but in the fire department we do, because then it adds like, uh, it adds flair to your sash. You know, like, like a, like a, like a merit badge on a, on a boy scout's vest. And you know, I just it stuck with me. And you know you get back to the station and nobody's really talking about it, but they're like, hey, good job, kid. And you're like good job, like I just drug this, this bloody, mangled body out of a car, like, what did I do? Good, like, but it's this, this thing of you're there, you see it, you do it. Um, and that was the extent of what we would consider pure support or schism or anything there. You know like, all right, cool kid uh, here, drink a drink, a mountain dew, head off to home and go back to sleep. You know, 20 some years ago, we really didn't have that kind of stuff. It wasn't. It was only for like your big, big incidents that you would actually do citizen stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you're talking multifamilies, you know, family members dying in one single fire or something, something big and out of sorts Before you go any deeper. So that culture that you were talking about, you said you started at 16, right, we know that was the volunteer days or whatever, but was that the culture in the volunteer system at the time? Or was that the culture in the career system when you first got hired, or were they the same?
Speaker 1:I would say it's about the same. You know, then, my experience with the career stuff was, um, like I knew guys that got paid for it, but like you, you held them to a higher standard, just like a professional football player or something like you held them to like that. Oh, like you deal with this better. So I, I don't have that experience yet, so I don't know how to deal with it. Right, that's where it was left, so, um, but then like, and everybody's seen it where? Now? Like, oh, you saw one dead body, I saw two in the same car. Oh, you saw two in the same car, I saw three in a fire.
Speaker 1:And now it's like now, it adds to like your, your pecking order, or like where you fall in the totem pole and like now that is considered your experience level. So like where I guess in the normal lifestyles that's a tragic thing and nobody wants to talk about it. The fire department has done it the opposite, where it's like now you're earning rank within that tribe and you know yes, it does add to your experience level of what we can and can't handle, what we would do differently.
Speaker 2:It adds to that, but but we also mask the emotions behind it and that's where it really starts to eat away at us over time like you know, we know being in the fire service, right and uh, obviously the guys listen are all connected to the fire service in some way. But it's one of those things where, like, the human is not designed, right, the human mind's not designed to see that much trauma. You know over x amount of years that constant fucking exposure, right, like exactly so go ahead so yeah, so so we'll.
Speaker 1:We'll fast forward, right? I get hired at 20 years old. I'm a, I'm I'm full of piss and vinegar. I just want to take the world by by storm. Um, I'm a paramedic, I'm working on busy medic units all the time. Um, you know, married, I got kids now and uh, you just, we come to work, we do our job and we go home and I love my job. I loved it then, I love it now. Even though we deal with all this nasty shit, you still come back for more that adrenaline. Anybody that came into the fire service with no prior background, the first time they go to a fire, the first time they go to that nasty wreck, they're bit by the bug and they're in. You're either in or you're out, as a junior member, then a full member at 16, and doing it all my life Like I. I was institutionalized almost like I'm a fireman.
Speaker 2:That's what I do. Yeah, it's a hundred percent. That's, that's how you grew up, you know.
Speaker 1:So, uh, I remember we'll go into the story and you asked before we started if I was comfortable sharing it. Yes, sir, and I'm 100% comfortable sharing it, because if I don't share my experience, then I'm not doing this system any good. I'm not supporting what I believe Unfortunately, that's the other culture is that somebody has something that kind of breaks them, but they don't want to open up, they don't want to share it and be vulnerable, because in our culture it can be seen as a sign of weakness and, unfortunately, that sign of weakness then turns into helpless and hopeless. And when you get into that hole, it's almost this sense of like I'm damaged goods I can't be fixed, I'm stuck here forever. Nobody understands it, and this is just where I live now, right, like I'm stuck in the shit and I'm here, but that's the furthest from the truth.
Speaker 1:My story starts on December 18, 2014, where the station that I'm working. It was only four of us at the time. You had a paramedic driver, an officer, a paramedic and a firefighter on the medics, so we ran with two people on everything, and so we get dispatched for a long fall. And we know the address it's a. It's a hardware store that, over the years has expanded its floor space. It used to have like an outdoor wood yard. They closed it in, they made more floor space to sell more goods, so on and so forth. So on the way to the call there they're saying it's a long fall. We've really activated the, the helicopter. Um, our dispatchers have the ability that, if they they see fit, that it meets trauma categories, that they can early activate the helicopter before we even get there. So you know, the the bravado side of you is like oh, this is going to be a good one, like we're going to find somebody pretty messed up.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, you're like yeah, this is this going to be a good one, like we're going to find somebody pretty messed up, oh yeah, yeah, you're like, yeah, this is, this is a good medical call. If there's a such a thing, you know, right, right, like on a fire, it's, it's. You know, reports of across the street from in the area of yeah, cool calls. Like you know, it's a fire yeah, you know it's a job.
Speaker 2:At that point you're good yeah, so.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we're like, we're like, all right, cool, it's time to go to work. We actually we're not picking up old people from the nursing home, we're actually going to get to use our skills. So we walk in on this call and people are frantic and I noticed this guy. That's one of our retirees, right, he did 30 some years in the department. He's an OG. He rode tailboard. He went to fires with no masks. He rode tailboard. He, you know, went to fires with no masks, like long coats and three-quarter boots, like that kind of guy.
Speaker 1:And when I walked in, I just I noticed like fear in his eyes, like fear, panic, like just he looked different and all he could say was it's kenny, it's kenny. And I'm like and like at the time. I'm like who the hell is kenny? Like whatever. So we get to this guy laying on the floor. There's a giant hole in the ceiling, uh, basically he was walking on a corrugated metal roof and when it was a lumber yard, they had clear plastic corrugation as a makeshift skylight. Okay, well, when they closed the whole building in, they just painted the whole roof one color and didn't replace the plastic oh, so gotcha yeah so, as he's walking, he thinks it's corrugated metal and plastic.
Speaker 1:Yep, breaks right through trap doors, uh, falls through the, the drop ceiling below and then onto a concrete and tiled floor jesus, so it's about a 30 30 foot fall. And uh, so we see him on the floor, bleeding, bleeding everywhere, snoring respirations like and with my knowledge, skills and ability, like all right, he's got a closed head injury.
Speaker 1:There's this like it's go time yeah and when we look at him it's actually a lieutenant that works the station next to us the day after. So on a 24-72 shift we were on D shift. He worked A shift at the next station over.
Speaker 2:That's the gentleman that fell through the roof, correct? Yes, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So now it's like it's not like those calls where you go and it's a nasty call and you can separate it because this is just Joe Schmo, like you've never seen this guy and you'll never see him again. Like you can separate it because you're not emotionally attached and as soon as we saw him in this condition, like now, there's an emotional attachment to it yeah, he's a, he's a brother right, right, I've driven the fire engine for him.
Speaker 1:He's working my station, I work in his station. Like his, his brother also works for the fire department.
Speaker 1:So now, like you, you, just you, just go into go mode yeah and so, as we're, as we're treating him, we're, you know, bored and collar, we're trying to get as much information as we can. Uh, the helicopters, you know, because they early activated. The helicopter is only five minutes out. So now you're thinking we're to get all this shit done as fast as we can. And we got to do it better than anything else because he's one of ours and I remember, in the heat of the moment, with the four of us there actually I take that back to the ambulance at the time was a day working ambulance, so we had two guys on the Ambo, so between the six of us it like a hollywood scripted scene. Nobody talked, everybody did what they had to, but it looked like we had rehearsed it, like it was just poetry in motion. Everything went perfect, like you can read any textbook you want. And we did it better than that.
Speaker 1:And I remember going out to do a consult while they were finishing packaging him. I was going to consult with shock, trauma and I don't remember what I said. I'm pretty sure I cussed over the radio, which is a huge Cardinal sin, but it just, I, just we just did what we had to get him in the medic unit. We get to the LZ and I'm like I just we just did what we had to Get him in the medic unit. We get to the LZ and like he's now posturing, he's this, like he's bleeding from his ears Like battle signs, like his eyes are swollen, like we know this is not good, yeah, and you know, now you're like you're holding this guy's hand because it's like no, you're one of ours, I'm, he's squeezing my hand, I'm squeezing back. You know you're trying to talk positive, so on, so forth. We load him in the helicopter and, uh, now he's gone. So it goes from zero to 100, back to zero. Yeah, and your adrenaline's still pumping.
Speaker 1:And, and so my partner on the medic unit that day had to. He flew with the troopers Okay, those that are listening, our aviation is run by the Maryland State Police, so they are state police, state troopers that are also flight medics, paramedic level trained, so on and so forth. So at the time they only had three people they had, so on and so forth. So, uh, at the time they only had three people, they had a pilot, co-pilot and then a provider. So, with a high priority call, it wasn't uncommon for them to bring another paramedic with them Gotcha.
Speaker 1:So my partner flies, I drive the medic unit back to the station, back it in and you know I immediately go into like God, now I got to restock this medic medic. You know, I gotta clean all this shit. I gotta do all this shit by myself, like my heart's still thumping in my chest. Yeah, so I back in, I get out of the medic and I take my my button-up shirt off. It's covered in blood. I take my boots off and I'm like, nope, first thing I gotta do is make some coffee, because this is gonna be a lot. Uh, thankfully it was still still like mid morning. I walk into the kitchen and there was a division chief there and, uh, he's, he's since retired and moved on to another department. Uh, and he's a standup guy. Uh, awesome dude.
Speaker 1:So I walk into the kitchen and he's like uh, hey, hey, brad, what do you guys need? And I'm like I don't know, I'm just making coffee. He's like did you guys get lunch yet? I'm like no, we hadn't been to the store. He's like do you guys want pizza? I'm like, yeah, that's fine. Where do you want me to order from? I was like I don't care. Is this place okay? I'm like sure. He's like what kind of pizza do you want? And I'm like I just looked at him and I said, dave, you're division chief, make a fucking decision. It's like you know, like the company man side of me is like all right, I'm going to get yoked up because I just referred to a division chief by first name. But then, like the emotional side of me was like I'm not making any decisions, I'm in no mind, I'll be, I'll eat out of the trash can.
Speaker 2:at this point, like like I'm yeah, you'd be lucky if I even eat right now. You know Exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly so, um, so he orders pizza. You know, I'm mopping out the medic unit, I'm restocking all this stuff, I'm cleaning all the like the bloody stretcher, and you know, doing doing all the things that we got to do because we got to get back to work. Right, Like all right, we ran a bad call, but now we got to go back to work, Like we don't have time to stop. So more chiefs are filtering in and so they sit the crew down and they're like hey guys, we know this was a nasty call. If you need anything, don't hesitate to call us. And if you guys want to go home, we totally understand. If you want to stay, that's fine. If you change your mind later, like here's our direct number, as you call us, we'll make it happen and no questions asked. We're like we all kind of look at each other awkwardly and nobody jumps at going home. So we all stayed.
Speaker 1:And I want to go back to what the chiefs did. I'm not throwing shade on that, I'm not passing judgment, I'm not. I'm not trying to be rude or salty about it, because they were doing what they thought was right and we didn. There was no malintent, Like there was. I truly believe that they were just doing what they thought because there wasn't a policy in place.
Speaker 1:So now we've got a bunch of chiefs sitting there and they're like looking at us and it's like, uh, like like we were talking before we recorded and and, like I said about being a young kid, like now there's this, like like I said about being a young kid, like now there's this like I don't know what's going on in my head, Like there is a tornado of shit going on in my head right now and I can't make this decision. So if I go home, I'm going to be looked at as as weak and that I can't do my job, but I don't know what I'm dealing with right now. Like it's, the dust hasn't even settled, so I don't know what this. I don't know what these emotions are yeah, I'm fucking lost.
Speaker 2:Right now it's what it sounds like, right, I'm lost all the way around yeah, and in all reality, like when the chiefs were talking.
Speaker 1:It was like charlie brown's teacher just want want, want want, want, want, want and like call us if you need anything yeah so, so everybody stays, and it was kind of like walking on pins and needles, like walking on eggshells, like nobody talked, like we knew, like innately, you knew everybody was feeling everything that you felt, but like if we were to talk about it it'd be like popping the balloon and we'd all be an emotional mess, right.
Speaker 1:And so it was like unspoken, nobody talked about it, nobody did anything, uh, and then we just dove right into our dark humor that we're used to, right, right, we just that's, that's what we do, you know. And so, um, like I remember my officer went back and she was now sizing up this building. We, we're looking at it on Google earth and she's like, oh, look, from from a satellite, you can see where all these these windows are. She's like, there's, there was 18 windows. And I was like, well, now there's only 17. And she looked and we laughed, we laughed and like, as insensitive as that sounds, that's what the fire department does, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, that's how we deal.
Speaker 1:So. So the day goes on, everything's fine. Uh, I couldn't tell you what we ran the rest of the shift. I couldn't tell you if we were busy or slow. I couldn't tell you if we slept all night. I couldn't tell you what we had for dinner. I couldn't tell you what was on the pizza that the chief worked, wow. Um.
Speaker 1:So the next morning there is a deputy chief at the station making coffee at like five, 30 in the morning. So I come out of the bunk room and chief Michaels is making coffee and I was like well, this isn't good, he's like. He's like he's like well, it's not all bad either. And uh, and I was like all right, so how much trouble are we in? He's like no, no, no. Uh, and I was like all right, so how much trouble are we in? He's like no, no, no, no, nobody's in trouble. He's like, but he's like the conversation that we need to have is not a phone conversation or an email conversation. We're like all right.
Speaker 1:So, uh, the day before, I do remember our phones rang off the hook text messages, phone calls, the station phone was ringing off the hook, everybody to know the nitty-gritty details. They want to know how we're doing and and that was just so overwhelming. So chief michaels is there. Everybody wakes up, we're all sitting at the coffee table and he's like hey guys. So, um, just just letting you know that kenny is, he is still alive, but they're keeping him alive just to harvest organs, and you know it's not a good prognosis. So his family made the difficult decision to harvest organs and you know, let him pass, yeah. So, like you know, we were hopeful. Of course, like as a paramedic and as a clinician, you look at this laundry list of injuries that he had and you're like there's no possibility, but you're still holding on to that 1% that there could be, yeah, exactly. So you know we're kind of crushed. You know, like, hug it out, ugly cry. You know we do that kind of stuff and it's like all right, well, now we're going home. So I remember getting in my truck and I called my wife at the time and I was like hey, like I'm turning my phone off, I'm going home, I'll let you know when I get there. But like this is just so overwhelming, I can't, I just can't. So, yep, no problem. And as soon as I got on the road and was like in peace and quiet, like that's where the balloon popped. I cried the entire like hour ride home and got home I'm safe. I sat on the couch and just cried all day and it's like you knew you did everything that you could for a situation that you couldn't fix. But like you're second guessing, what if I did this faster? What if we got here quicker? What if, what if? We responded you just you're, you're, you're second guessing everything you did.
Speaker 1:I remember at the time I was still volleying in the little town I live in and we had a firehouse meeting. Uh, a friend of mine at the time. He works for a DC fire, so we worked the same shift so we hung out a lot off duty. He catches window that he calls me and he's like whatever you need, you say when and I'm there. He's like you want to. You want to get shit face drunk in the garage tonight? We're in, you want to. You just want to go for a ride and talk, I'm in. He's like you, quiet. Whatever you need, I got you. You're not doing this alone. And I was like all right, cool, there's a sigh of relief.
Speaker 1:So, uh, hindsight it's not the best coping mechanism, but the plan was we were, we were going to get in the garage and drink beer until we figured out what, what we were going to do if it took all night and another run to the beer store. We were doing it, yeah, so. So I had I had. That was my little support, my relief, right? Yeah, so my, my oldest daughter was running around at the firehouse. She slips and busts her chin and she's gonna need stitches. My wife at the time. She says, well, you gotta take her to the hospital. And I was like I'm not fucking doing that. And she's like, well, I have to work in the morning and you're not, you're not doing anything tomorrow. So, like, you take her. And I'm like, yeah, no, I don't think you understand. I'm going to drink beer in the garage until I forget my name, until all these emotions leave me. That's what I'm doing and that's what's happening. And she's like, well, you ran one bad call in your career and you want to fucking pity party.
Speaker 2:And that's what she said.
Speaker 1:That's what she said to me. So, um, I, our, our marriage was not the best. Um, apparently we'll dive into that later. But so, like I remember having like an out of body experience. I remember, kind of standing behind my like I I remember looking at the back of me, facing her, and I leaned into the guy or the body that was in front of me. I was like if that was my wife, I'd kill her right now, jesus. And and we were in a room full of people. I'm like, yeah, no, if I do it now, I'm definitely going to jail. And uh, that's, that's not an option. And so I remember like, okay, pick up my daughter, get in the car, we're going to the hospital. And once I got in the car, I called her mother back and was like I was like you don't fucking understand. I don't remember what I said. I remember screaming for like 20 minutes on the phone and saying some stuff that if I saw another man say it to his wife, I'd probably punch him in the mouth. Yeah, but like that was, that was the bubble bursting, that was like all these emotions coming to a head and and I lost my freaking mind. So after that, everybody's walking on eggshells at home and whatever we go back to work, and it was like exactly, sweeping it under the rug. It was like it happened, it's done, it's over with, there's nothing we can do, we can't change it. Sweep it under the rug, so.
Speaker 1:So now years go by, within like six months of that, my wife and I are separated. It's, it's an ugly separation. It's it's like now I'm, now I got to deal with this emotional shit that I don't really realize I got to deal with. Uh, I'm now a single head of household again, I'm taking care of all my bills on my own and, like it totally overshadowed this emotional rupture that I had. Now I'm getting used to being the divorced dad and my responsibilities have doubled. And now I got to work overtime to pay my bills, blah, blah, blah. So now I'm working overtime when I don't have my kids, so I'm either at home, daddy daycare, or I'm at work. Yeah Right, so we work 24-72. Now I'm working, you know, 48, 48. I'm working, like the weekends that I don't have my kids I'm at work. And, uh, you know, so that goes for a few years.
Speaker 1:And, uh, you know, trying to get back into the dating world and you know any little thing that popped up was like an emotional outburst for me and I noticed myself like now, as one of those older guys when I was a kid, that I shut up, kid, it's time to go back to work. You know, and things, just things aren't getting better at all and like, really they're, they're kind of getting worse. Like now I'm snapping at my kids more. I'm like the dog barks for no reason and I'm losing my mind, the dog's barking, and you know, I'm just so overwhelmed. But like we're firemen, we're fixers, like we don't have time to deal with our problems. We got to deal with everybody else.
Speaker 1:Like a, a friend of mine kind of talks about like eap and stuff like that. Like you know, hey, eap's free. Like you know you can go talk to somebody, and so I'm like, all right, well, maybe that's what I need to do. So I go through our health services. I find a counselor near me, I sit down and talk to her.
Speaker 1:The downfall is you only get four sessions on EAP. So I'm like, yeah, four sessions, that should be enough. That's four hours of just talking about it and I'll get some advice and I'll do this and that's where I'll move forward. Right, like it'll be a reset, we'll be good to go. And the first session that I have with this counselor, she's crying while I'm telling her all this story and so at the end I left feeling like, all right, well, that's not going to work. So I go back for a couple more sessions and she starts going into like, like PTSDd, but not saying that I have it. She's like well, you know, there's, there's two ways to look at ptsd. You have ptsd that is like a sledgehammer smashing a rock right, one big significant thing that really just throws everything off. Or you have complex or compound ptsd, where it's like a water dripping on a rock. Right, the individual water drops don't actually break the rock, but years of that water dripping it wears a hole in the rock.
Speaker 1:Now a little event can break that rock. So I'm like all right, fair, yeah, that makes sense. And the other analogy she uses, like the frog in water, right, so if you take a frog and you put them in a pot of water and then you put it on the stove and you slowly heat that water up, the frog is like no, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. And then when the water is too hot, the frog is still there, like no, no, no, no, it's okay, it's only been getting worse slowly. Uh, or you can take that pot of water and put it on the stove first, get it boiling and drop the frog in, and the frog is, like you know, instantly dead. Like that. That resonated with me. And, uh, being a fixer, I'm like well, I'm not going to rely on somebody else to fix me. What can I do? So I found this book on Amazon complex PTSD, start reading through it, and I I finished it in like a day because it was like everything about this book was everything about me.
Speaker 2:It was like it resonated in it.
Speaker 1:Yep, Yep. Everything that I read was like somebody wrote that book the day after this event happened.
Speaker 2:Wow, okay, and so you know uh.
Speaker 1:I'm like all right, cool. Like now I can understand it more. It's it's I'm understanding. All right, cool, like now I can understand it more I'm understanding me and how these things have affected me. So I remember sitting down with my daughters they were probably like six and two at the time and I sat them down and I was like all right, we got to have a really serious talk real quick. I was like I promise I'm not going to be upset, I'm not going to be mad. Whatever answer you give me, I will take for face value, like it's. It's going to be the brutal, honest truth.
Speaker 2:And this is you're asking your kids this, correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, and there's six and two, so I'm trying to word it that they understand it. Obviously, my two year old doesn't really understand it. I said but whatever answer you give me.
Speaker 1:I love you to death and I'm I'm not going to be mad. Okay, they're like all right. I said are you ever afraid of me? Do I ever scare you? And they're like it felt like jumping off a cliff. So I asked this question and they immediately get like you can watch them tense up and their eyes got scared and everything else. And I said I promise, whatever you say, I'm not going to be bad. And they just burst out crying and they were like, yeah, sometimes you're really scary, wow and. And I cried like a little bitch, like and come to find out it was actually a good cry, like when you're crying giant crocodile tears.
Speaker 1:There is a physiological connection to that. Like I just remember, like the weight of the world was lifted off of me, like like part of me was embarrassed and and ashamed that I'm, like whatever I've become, my kids are afraid of me, and so I like you know, I kept to my promise. I just hugged it out with them and I was like, look, that's what I needed to hear. I needed to hear that honest truth, right, and? And in the fire department, I'm sure everybody's heard this, like you only get the honest answers from two different people somebody who's super drunk or a kid yeah, that's right. And so that that was. That was just an insanely relieving day because I was like all right, cool, I'm, I'm in, I'm, I'm in, a hundred percent. I don't know what it looks like, I don't know, I don't know what these steps look like, but I'm not going down this path anymore. Like my kids are afraid to be with me, like because of what I've become.
Speaker 2:So that was really that turning point where you said this ain't working, no more, I gotta, I gotta fix my shit Right.
Speaker 1:That was. That was like an intervention, for you know somebody who's alcohol dependent or you know, uh, you know somebody who's on drugs. Right, like drugs, right, like for me, that's what I needed. So kids go to bed and uh, now I'm like, all right, it's research time, what do I do? So I go through, uh, we have the center of excellence. It's in, uh, the neighboring county. So from where I live it's maybe an hour and a half, two hour drive and I've heard about it and it's it's a center for union firefighters.
Speaker 1:That is substance abuse, behavioral health and all these things. It's an inpatient, they do outpatient. Uh, I've heard nothing but good things about it. So, uh, put the kids to bed, I get a beer or two and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, all right, it's research time. Look this place up and they have a phone number, a hotline, 24 hour hotline, and uh, it's it's like one o'clock in the morning and I'm I'm just chewing through all this information. So I get the phone, I dial the number and I remember like, once I hit, send, I'm not going back.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And then I'm like nope, the girls were scared, Send. And I'm like it's one o'clock in the morning, Nobody's going to answer. If they don't answer, I don't know what's going to happen. I've used my four sessions with DAP. I don't know what to do about looking for a therapist, but this is my, this is my last resort. And then somebody answered on the second ring and I was like, oh shit. I was like, and I even said that the guy was. He says his name and I'm like, oh shit, there's actually somebody here.
Speaker 2:He's like, yep, 24 hours, 24 hours a day, brother, that's awesome Morning noon and night.
Speaker 1:You, you call, we answer. And I was like man. So I give him the cliff notes version and I'm like I, I don't know what to do. Like I, I seriously don't. I've ripped open this, this, this vulnerability, and I'm stuck. I don't know where to go, I don't know who to call, I don't know what to do. So he's like we got you. He's like we can do this, so we start going into the inpatient stuff. And I was like all right, cool. He's like, yeah, it's like thousands of dollars to do it. I'm like, yeah, cool, I don't have hundreds of dollars.
Speaker 1:I was like what about insurance? And he's like, yeah, unfortunately we're not doing insurance yet. He's like but we have grants that we can get you in and we have scholarships and stuff like that, but it usually only covers half, so it still leaves you with a couple thousand dollars. I'm like, hey, man, I can't do that. He's like all right, well, outpatient is more affordable, but still you're going to be left with $1,000 or so. And I'm like I like I can't do that. I can't do that Like I need to, but I can't. And uh, you know, it's like I got my kids. Like I can't, I can't go to this inpatient place for 40 days. Like my ex-wife's going to break me over the colds on child support or this.
Speaker 1:So, like now, it's like this whirlwind of all these other emotions. So he's like all right, look, I got your information. Let me do some research on my end and I'll call you back tomorrow, if that's okay. He's like you need to go get some sleep, you need to rest. Uh, you're in the right place, you're doing the right things. Like I'm proud of you for calling and you know all these things. He's like we're not going to leave you high and dry, I promise nice. I'm like, all right.
Speaker 1:So next morning he calls we got a couple other things. I call the union and I'm like. I'm like, what can we do? Like I'm not in a good spot. I'm not in a bad spot, but I'm not in a good spot. Where do we do this? How do we do this? So now they're actually they're on the phone with blue cross, blue shield, who was our carrier at the time and he's like look, I got a dude that's, you know, potentially suicidal, and you're telling him that your insurance won't cover him for this. And they're like, yep, sorry, we don't do that. So I I pat the union on the back for actually going to bat for me.
Speaker 1:But still, I meet, dead end, one of my buddies, one of my best friends. He he's a police officer, uh, but was a volunteer fireman, uh. I call him and I'm like dude, I don't know what to do. And he's like well, maybe this is a workplace injury, maybe you can go workman's comp route on it. I'm like, yeah, but I don't. I don't want to be the guy that's doing it for a payday. And and he's like no, you're doing it for you. He's like, you'll probably get a payday. He's like but like, don't think of it as doing it for the money, doing it for you and your safety. I'm like all right, fair enough. So I go that route.
Speaker 1:Fill out the paperwork with our health and safety office and within 24 hours, I'm meeting with the head of our one of our workmen's comp attorneys. Yep, you're going to go here, you're going to do this, you're going to do that. He's like. The bad thing is, he's like we got to put you off. Because we got to put you off work for a little bit of time, you can't have the injury without a loss of work. And he's like, because these things happened years ago, like we have to really pad the case to make it happen. I'm like all right, whatever.
Speaker 1:So now I got to go to work and tell my battalion chief I need like five shifts off. Yeah, like, so what is my shift going? To think Like I start going through those emotions. And my shift was super awesome. They were super supportive and I met with them and I was like hey, guys, I need to take some time off. I got to handle some things, I got to get me taken care of. And they were like yeah, of course, like whatever you need, like what, like, what can we do to help? Uh, you know, like, wow, like we never we didn't know that was. That was a thing Like you really held it. Well, you covered it up and they were super supportive. There wasn't an ounce of regret in my decision and my captain at the time, you know, I met with him about it and he's like dude, take all the time you need. He's like I need you back on the floor, but I need you back on the floor at 100, not 50. So, whatever you need, you call me, I'll make it happen. Uh, so it really put my mind at ease.
Speaker 1:I start talking to a counselor. I get in, um, and this guy that I met with dealt specifically with fire, police, military. We ended up talking about a lot of stuff that didn't even pertain to the call. You know, going back into childhood and my upbringing and things that I do and why would I do them. And, uh, it was, it was awesome, it was like six months. Uh, I was going weekly, so that that was a hard part. But uh, you know, this guy, like it was like he already knew everything about me and like guided me through everything. Uh, what's the saying Like you, you can't see the forest through the trees. He could see every single tree and walk me down the path to get me where I needed.
Speaker 1:So after that I meet with health and safety to come back to work. Everything's good to go. And, um, you know I'm talking to him and uh, chief doherty he was the chief of health and safety. He's like would you be interested in doing the peer support? He's like I know, I know, like right now it's, it might not be a good time, but like you've, you've dealt with this and it's come through in a very positive way for you. So, like, what do you think about getting on the peer support team? And I'm like I don't know what that looks like, but if I can prevent somebody going down the road that I went, I'm in 100. So I go through the training. Uh, it's through the icisf. Uh, they're, they're awesome, they do a great job with training, but they train more like for the lay person.
Speaker 1:And like you have to be like soft and you have to be accepting and you have to be these things and any of your firemen listening right now no, you can't talk like that to firemen. You have to be hard-nosed. You have to be like tough love. You got to be in their face about it. I get on the team. We end up running a call. A call out a neighboring jurisdiction. They had a suicide and this guy's a captain. It's a small town, so they all grew up together, they all volunteer together, they all work together, they've been in each other's weddings, all their kids call each other uncles and aunts and like they're just a super tight knit group. And this devastated like. My first real experience with peer support was that and I remember seeing this one guy in the corner was just reserved, like quiet, like you'd ask him a question and he just nod, he wouldn't talk, and this is one of the dudes that you're there to help.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, okay, copy, go ahead.
Speaker 1:So he's just sitting there and I'm like, I'm like him and our thing is, it's not like old system, where it was like everybody has to be involved and everybody has to talk. And you have to rehash this. Yeah, like we realize that like healing is different for everybody Right, the timeframes are completely different, and like their grieving process is going to be different for everybody. So we don't we don't force anybody into. A couple of guys are talking, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:So I look at this guy sitting in the corner, quiet, and I was like, all right, you don't have to talk, that's fine. I respect that I said. But let me give you my cliff notes version of what happened to me and how it was terrible for me and if any of that resonates with you, we can keep talking. If it doesn't, I'll shut up and I'll leave you alone. I'll leave you my number, you can call me whenever. So I give him the cliff notes and this guy started talking and would not stop.
Speaker 1:Wow, so like, for me, that was that was like a huge therapeutic breakthrough, because now I'm using my terrible story and the way I navigated it to help this guy not go down that same road. So that's, that's really how I got into the peer support and I remember the chief was like dude, I don't know what you did, but you're a miracle worker. You got these guys talking, you got this and we had a team of like six people go down to help and he's like they want you to come back, they want this they. And I was like I just talked to him like firemen and let him know that it's okay to not be okay like you. You went through this and you're thinking that you can't be sad or pissed off or angry or scared because we have to. We have to, we have to be firemen and go back to work and do our job and at the end of the day, we're no more skin, bone and emotion than every other person in public.
Speaker 2:We think we're superheroes and this stuff doesn't affect us and it does obviously right, and so it's such a good change in perspective and culture, like we always talk about culture changing and how we wish it didn't, kind of thing, or let's go back to the old. This is one of those things that is so beneficial that we're not reverting back, you know, to the exactly. Hey, you're a fucking fireman, suck it up. You know, which is how both of us were raised in the system, because I remember that conversation happening at a kitchen table at station 33 once and I think you and I were both there and I I don't even remember the call, but it was literally like you guys have a problem with that, you know. And like everyone's looking at each other, no one wants to say anything, they're like, and the schism guy's like good, you're fucking fireman, and just like walks out and I'm like okay, cool, cool, that's how we do it, you know like exactly, exactly so.
Speaker 1:So from there, like I saw this, I this opening, and it's like all right, I'm on the pure support team. But why do we have to wait for a bad call to happen to go out and help these people? Why do we have to wait for like the start of a game to start practice? Why do we have to wait for like kickoff to now talk about the playbook? Yeah, you know like why.
Speaker 2:Why, like we've been doing it that way, like we were very reactive and not proactive yeah, which is obviously we all know as a fire service, we're a reactive group of individuals for the most part exactly so.
Speaker 1:So now, like you know, people, people heard that you know we're doing peer support and that, like I wasn't afraid to share my story, and so they would come to me and they're like, hey, man, you got a second.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, yeah, of course. And they're like this is what I'm dealing with, and this, that and the other, and I don't know. I feel like it's not your problem, man, you got enough on your plate. I'm like no, no, no. Like when the call goes out at the fire station, we go out, we drop what we're doing and we go. And so I took that approach with people in the firehouse and they're like no, no, no, you got better things to do. And I'm like nope, this is what I have to do right here, right now. And I was like nobody did this for me, not that I expected them to, but nobody. Nobody listened to me when I was in a hole and I felt terrible. So if you feel comfortable talking to me, then I owe it to you to give you this time and it was working really well. Like you know, sometimes just that cathartic release of like my wife and I are arguing and the kid won't sleep and I work too much and I got to cut the grass. I got to do all this and just say, yeah, man, that sucks. And they're like you're not going to call me a bitch. No, man, like you're right, that is overwhelming. Like I, I totally agree with you and all right. So what are we going to do to fix it Right? So you know, maybe I took some pages out of my therapist book, like the things that they were doing for me. And you know I'm not a therapist. I don't claim to be a therapist. Everything that I do is purely conversation. It's not like I'm not professionally trained in that, but what they were doing for me worked. So I started doing those things with other people. So, years of doing that and really helping people out, uh, the chief is like hey, um, we, we're starting to put team leads in. Instead of having one person running it and a bunch of uh groundwork, we want some people in the middle that can make things happen on shift, and you know, some forward thinkers and things like that. Like, we want you to be a team lead and I'm like man, I'm just, I'm just coming to work and doing my job and helping people, you know, and helping our own and he's like exactly that's what we want. So, so now I'm a team lead and what that looks like is we kind of organize training. We have, uh, we have like quarterly meetings. We just say like, hey guys, what's what's good, what's going on, what's working, what's not? Uh, we really just like, do that quality assurance on our program and and revamp it as need be, and we, we kind of develop what we call a hybrid system, that instead of waiting for these bad things to happen, we talk about bad things that have happened and how we deal with it and what our team actually does. So we get people that come up before and start talking about it. So like, that's now like the preventative side of it and it works really well.
Speaker 1:So, uh, the other part of being a team lead is when we see things that pop up on the cad screen or bad calls that are going on. Uh, we, we start rallying the troops and uh, actually just the other day I was working and we see a call pop up for a cardiac arrest. Like I start looking through the notes. It's, it's an infant that was left in a bathtub. Mom walked out of the room for a minute, came back and the kid drowned.
Speaker 1:So, uh, like, I texted the battalion chief and I'm like, hey, I'm keeping an eye on this note or on these call notes. I'm starting to rally troops. I don't know what we need, but they're going to be ready at the front lines when you say go. And he's like all right, well, let me, let me figure it all out. And I'm like, no, no, I'm not asking, I'm telling you this is what we're doing, nice. And uh, so the chief is on the, on the team. And so he was like cool, get you, you rally the troops. And I was like I'll wait for your, your go, and then we'll send people.
Speaker 1:So we, we had one crew that is close to the hospital. They transported. Uh, they actually had two people there that are peer support members, so they just went, they took the engine and went over to the hospital and started talking there. Uh, we had two people that are on day work, that are closer to our dispatch center. They went in and talked to the call taker and dispatcher. Um, and we, we wrote everybody into this.
Speaker 1:So, um, and and it's that's kind of what we do as a team lead when when, uh, uh, another team member calls me and they're like hey, I'm dealing with this, this is what I'm thinking, this is where I'm going with it. Uh, this is what I referred, um, this is what. Uh, this is the path I'm going. What do you think of that? And I'm like, yeah, that's great, or hey, let's, let's add some more resources. Maybe let's, let's change our direction a little bit. But I just kind of coordinate all that. I take what our team, our team values are and support that with, with the members, and it works really well and we've we've built it up. Our team has been requested for other large events.
Speaker 1:Those of you that are familiar with my county we're right around Annapolis. We span from, like, annapolis to Baltimore. We've got a lot of mutual aid partners. Um, we've got a lot of mutual aid partners, but, uh, we had, we had a shooting uh, active shooter in a newspaper office and like that was our one of our big national things that hit the news, and now we've got to deal with it. Um, so we had our team initially start, but then, because we're connected to all these people, we pulled back and let another team come in and handle it. That way we're not we're not masking anything with emotions or anything like that. It's it just. It just worked better. And so that's really how I got into the peer support team and what I've done to build it up and make it what it's worth.
Speaker 1:And I use this analogy when I describe it that when it comes to peer support, it's very similar to learning how to be a firefighter or a paramedic.
Speaker 1:If you're in a class with a firefighter that's never pushed a hallway, that's never thrown ladders, that's never cut a roof, that's never done any of that stuff, their credibility is a lot less Correct. When an instructor shows up and his turnout gear is all scorched, his helmet's burned to hell, and this guy just looks the part and then says, hey, when we see this situation, we have to do this, because I've seen this before and this doesn't work. You're going to listen to that person. Same with a paramedic, like you know. This is like yes, this is what they say is going to happen in a head injury patient, but I've seen it, it happens faster. It happens like this. It does this. Look out for that. You're going to listen to that paramedic a lot more than the paramedic that just passed paramedic and teaches it.
Speaker 1:So so I use I use my tragic story as positivity rather than sitting and dwelling on the negative side of it. All right. What did I learn from that and what can I do to help other people be better at what they're doing, whether it's peer support or navigating through a tragic event? And you know, I've learned I've learned a lot more on the backside that it's not the tragic event. It's the a hundred things that happened before that that now bubble up and make it even worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, All those, all those drops of water you're talking about, you know?
Speaker 1:that have been going on for years and years and years.
Speaker 1:Exactly so from there. Um, I read this one book on on PTSD, loved it. I refer it to a lot of people and sometimes I get people that call and they're in, they're in the pot of water that's getting hotter and hotter. I just I'm like, all right, what's your address? I'll find the book on Amazon and I send it to him. Right, just, I just buy it and send it to him. I'm like I sent you something. It worked for me. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. But I can tell you it helped me tremendously.
Speaker 2:So what's the name of that book?
Speaker 1:Um, it is complex PTSD. Um, it's like it's more of a workbook. It's not like a straight novel or anything. So, like you, you have to go in and write some notes and you have to kind of interact with the book itself. But it's like it helped me a ton and so, but I'm I'm still. I'm still kind of angry about a lot of stuff, right, Like I. I'm trying to curb it, so then I get into. I find this other book. It's called beyond anger and it goes into specifically why men are traditionally angry and, um, you know, it's not just the fire service but it's everything. As, being a little boy Like you fall off your bike and skin your knee, what does everybody say? Genuinely asking yeah, Suck it up, Rub some dirt on it. Can't get back on the bike. Yeah, like you don't have time to be sad so we mask that.
Speaker 1:Now, as years go by, we take all these feelings of vulnerability and insecurity and sadness and scared and all these things and we mask it with anger because that's a more dominant appearing trait, right? So we're angry because we've never been allowed to be sad and so, like that's another book that I that I refer to. Actually, every now and then I go back and like read a chapter here and there, like when I'm feeling, when I'm feeling like I'm slipping, I go back and read it. So as a kid, I hated reading. I hated it. If you couldn't tell me how to do it without reading a book, I didn't want anything to do it. And as an adult, that was my way of slowing down reading something and it's like, okay, yep, this connects with me, this is this. So I really got into that and and I use a lot of the stuff that I'm reading and learning to help other people but then I also refer them to these books like hey, I can't say it as well as the author did, go read this book, right, I'm not much of a reader. I was like neither was I until I read something that resonated with me. So that's that's really where I've found more of my piece and, um, you know, some of them are self-help, self-help books. Some of them are just, uh, just stories. Right, tim Kennedy has a great book scars and stripes. Kyle Carpenter has a great book Um, you know, he was a Marine jumped on a grenade to protect his platoon and uh, he was, he was pretty mangled. And like he tells, his Marine jumped on a grenade to protect his platoon and he was pretty mangled. And like he tells his story, Dan Crenshaw yes, he's a political figure, but his book does not dive into politics. It goes more into his backstory and why he believes in the political view he does, but he doesn't push politics on anybody. But again, just telling stories. And it's like man, I'm not the only person that's dealt with this kind of stuff. And by telling other people that, like I promise you're not the only person dealing with this, then they're, they're now like, oh, you, you've dealt with this. Okay, cool it's. It really opens Pandora's box. Cool way it's, it really opens pandora's box. So that's, that's really the story of why I got into the peer support realm, why I think it's so important.
Speaker 1:Um, and and I don't want to discredit what we were doing in the past because we didn't know what we didn't know. Right, there wasn't. You know, I'm talking 20 years ago, 20, 20, 15 ago. We didn't know all these things, we didn't realize that all these traumas mimic brain injuries. We didn't. We didn't realize that, you know, our, our hyper vigilance, and all that is due to the fact that we're we're on watch 24 hours a day and we don't turn that off right? So what do we do in a firehouse when, when things are calm, what's the first thing somebody does? They make a pot of coffee, right? So the the analogy there is like we're riding around with our foot on the gas and the brake. At the same time we're trying to slow our bodies down, but we're not. You know, we're not sleeping, we're not doing all these things. So it it's really pushed me into more of figuring that out.
Speaker 1:Um, even even after I've done the peer support roles and things like that, I'm still. I'm still hypervigilant, I'm not sleeping, you know. And what can I do? I found a? Um, a sleep restoration program that's run by Navy SEAL 62, romeo, and we basically go into all of these things that we're doing that trash our sleep in the fire service. You know, we stay up late, drink a lot of coffee, we get up early, we don't sleep because of calls. Even when we are sleeping, we're hypervigilant, so we're not getting good quality sleep and that just compounds all the things that we do during the day.
Speaker 1:I use it as like an incident action plan from a fire, right, but I use it over like a 20-year career. All right, what have I been doing and what am I getting out of it? All right, this isn't positive. What can I do to fix it? Right, that fire didn't go well. What do we do? Well, we pulled this line to this spot. All right, that might not have been the best spot, so let's pull it here and then we try that tactic and it works better.
Speaker 1:So now I sleep with a sleep machine. I don't drink caffeine after lunch. You know, I try to do some, some yoga and deep breathing stuff and you know, when I feel myself getting anxious, I focus on some like skip breathing or box breathing and things like that, like let's calm the central nervous system down to make ourselves better. That way, when I do run this bad call, I'm not in an emotional brain, I'm more in a logical brain and I can separate these. It's working. It's a work in progress. It's something you have to do all the time. You can't just do it once in a while and expect it to work. I'm not perfect at it, but I'm looking into more things on how to get to that point.
Speaker 2:Dude, your story is amazing, right. So I know for a fact it's going to resonate with our listeners and you've been going into. I mean, you've pretty much covered everything when it comes down to that peer support and why it's so important and and the reason why you guys existed. But, more importantly, like hey, what have we learned from past practices that have not worked Right? Which we that suck it up, man up kind of thing. And I'm I'm just curious. I just have one question really for you, before we kind of move on and and wrap things up when it comes down to peer support.
Speaker 2:But so I came up through the same system you did, right. So we were taught the same thing, you know, and we mentioned it a little bit earlier Like, hey, you had a problem with that. Well, good thing you didn't, because you're a fucking fireman, like that's just how it is, you're not allowed to have problems with this. So I went through the same thing. So there was, you know, the same deal as you, as as most firemen, right, the went through a nasty divorce. Life has been crazy, calls were crazy, everything else. I got to the point with myself too, where I'm like all right, well, it's, I guess it's time to start, you know, working on therapy, because what I'm doing right now is just self-destructive. It's not going to work. And I will never forget. I remember, like them, trying to crack into me and resisting so bad, because for the longest time I thought I had a superpower. And the superpower, right, was that if something bothered me, I could bury it so fucking deep in my brain that I would never think about it again, to the point where it never fucking happened, because I could. I could suppress it that much and it was crazy. So I'm going to mention a name um, from your department, right, just because he's such a fucking legend.
Speaker 2:Right, and he's the one taught me this. Right, but, and and I've told guys when they first get on the job, like, obviously outside of peer support and everything else, right, like the initial, you're on the scene, right, and you're trying to figure out, especially when you're new and you might have not seen this call yet right, how do you like, how do you kind of cut out the emotions and and go to work, right, and then we can hash through the emotions later. But so donald pomfrey god rest his soul literally my fucking idol in the fire service lit father figure I can't talk any more about him because I'll get emotional but unfortunately passed away shortly after he retired. But I remember I was stationed with him right off probation, right at station 18, and he, uh, we had run a nasty call and he said something like and at that point in life I think the Saw movies had just come out or became popular or somewhere around there and he's all like you know, hey, steve, have you seen that Saw movie?
Speaker 2:Right, and we've. All you know how gruesome it was, especially back in the day, right, and I'm like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's cool.
Speaker 1:He's like all right, let me give you a right.
Speaker 2:And at this point the man's got like 35 fucking years on a job lieutenant on the busiest single engine company. Of course I'm gonna listen to everything he has to teach me because, oh yeah, his words were gospel, yes, and so, uh, so he goes. He goes, think of these calls like the movie saw. He goes it's a fucking movie set like it's so gruesome and so nasty because it's not fucking real. Right, he's like at least that way, if you look at it like a movie, you just fucking go to work, you do your thing and then now we can capture that emotion and and process that call properly after you know um. But where I was going with that um is that I remember I like myself, just like you.
Speaker 2:I went through therapy. I wasn't right. You know it was affecting my job, my work, you know my home life considerably, and then everything was getting better. Right, I'm starting to chip away the walls. I'm bringing up these dredged memories and processing them and starting to understand the importance of what these you know therapists are trying to teach me that I was, I was highly resistant to, and then we, then it happened, right. So in my infancy of therapy, we get this nasty, freaking motor vehicle collision that involves a pediatric patient, right, and it's a girl and she's right around the same age as my daughter and she had a skateboard. It wasn't that bad of a call, like when it came down to the visual aspect of it, right, but it was one of those internal injuries or not capable of life. You know, the girl passed away, right, and it destroyed me and I was so angry at the therapist because I'm like in my brain, my fucked up brain, right, which most of us are kept telling myself myself, it wasn't that bad of a call. The general public would be like, hey, you just watched a freaking, you know, a young teenage girl pass away, right, and I'm trying to tell them. But it wasn't that bad right, because I've been on worse right. It's like how demented that we really are.
Speaker 2:But the great, I went into the therapist office like the following week when I was scheduled to go ready to fucking fight, like to the point where they pulled me into the office with like four other therapists, was like whoa, and I am like you fucked me up, I can no longer do this job. Like you ruined my fucking career. I mean, I'm like tearing into these motherfuckers. And obviously I was. I was wrong, you know a hundred percent. But how, first of all, have you kind of experienced that, like when you, when you first started going through, like shit, this is. I kind of feel like this is making it worse. Or, more importantly, because of how you're involved in the peer support program, how do you, how do you talk to somebody that might come back and be like bro, this made things worse. Because now I'm feeling I'm like and I don't want to feel this shit Like I, your job is to make it go away and make me go back to normal, and like how do you kind of address that scenario with those kinds of guys?
Speaker 1:So like to to think that we can just push it down and and forget it and like it never happened is is impossible and irresponsible. And uh, we ran a call a couple of years ago. Um, a pickup truck had a couple, uh, laborers in it and went off the road, hit a tree and burst into flames, okay. And so there was three people in it and went off the road, hit a tree and burst into flames. Okay, there was three people in it two in the front seat, one in the back, but it was like the quad cab, where the back door is open to the front like a suicide door. The driver gets out, he's just kind of banged up, the guy in the back is kind of banged up, but the guy in the front passenger seat was either knocked unconscious or whatever. He basically burned alive. And so we get there, we put this car, fire out. Um, we've got multiple crews. We're now searching for a possible fourth person. Uh, we're, we're looking for him. We can't find him.
Speaker 1:So at the time, uh, on my engine there was one of our, one of the volunteers at the station I worked. He was riding with us and he's 18 years old, and so I didn't force it on him to go up and see this body. I was like if you want to see it, that's on you. If you don't, that's OK, I'm not going to judge you either way. Don't that's okay? I'm not going to judge you either way. Uh, on the other engine that came, they were mostly volunteers, but again another young guy, maybe 19, 20 years old and, um, so after the fact we just did, we did our tailboard hot wash, right? So I'm no-transcript, no, no, no, I'm fine and I'm like yeah, but you're not. You're like, you're not going to be. It's not normal to see like half a skeleton and half a human body connected. I was like the only time you've seen anything like, that is a Halloween decoration. They're like oh yeah, yes, we're going to laugh because that's our way of coping with it. I was like but listen, if in an hour, a week, a month, a year, this comes back and it's haunting you, you have to do something. And I was like if anybody calls you a bitch for it, you have my permission to punch it in the mouth, nice, and move on, but it's okay. So you know, like how are you guys feeling now? They're like I mean, yeah, it sucks for him. But you know, we didn't really see it happen. We just put a car fire out. Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, all right, that's fine. So we go back, we go to lunch, the rest of the day is going on.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting in the office and this young guy comes in the office and he shuts the door behind him. And my guys know like I have an open-door policy. Whatever you need, please come in. So he comes in and he shuts the door and he sits down and you could just see the emotion in him again. Like he was this, this turbulent ball of emotion and his suit.
Speaker 1:If I would have said boo, he would have burst into tears, right. So he sits down and I was like, do you want to talk or do you need me to talk? And he's like, and he just, he like, lets out one little tear and I'm like I just get up and I bro, hug him and i'm'm like, I'm like, dude, it's okay, it's okay. You know like if you need to cry, you need to cry. Like the more you hide that, the more it's going to eat you alive, right, and and so so with it. Like that's kind of how I take it is just like when we run those bad calls, I tell them straight up. You may not feel it now, but when you, you will. And when you do, don't hide that emotion, right, and I took that from that anger book If you're sad, don't be afraid to be sad.
Speaker 1:Right, you're allowed to be sad, you're just allowed to be. And if you're, if you're, scared, you're allowed to be scared. But now let's talk about why you're scared. What made what scared you about that? What made you sad about that?
Speaker 1:Oh, this guy was the same age as my dad, or my dad has that same truck, or you know, my brother works for a company similar to that, or whatever that looks like. And then, like you said that, uh, humphrey would say, like it's not real, right? So like, okay, so you made a connection between your dad or your brother or whoever, but wasn't your brother. Well, no, okay. So, yes, it's one thing to be sad that you would be sad that your brother died, but this wasn't your brother, it wasn't your brother's truck, it wasn't your dad. So, like, you're safe right now. We're going to base it on that. Like the pediatric arrest that just happened the other day, one of the guys on the medic unit has a young daughter and you know I wasn't there specifically to deal with with them for this call, but I spoke with the other team members that were there and that's exactly what they did. Like hey, like you know what you need to do you need to call your wife right now and you need to FaceTime your daughter.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:And it's like well, I mean, I'm a, I'm a shit show right now. Why would I want to see my daughter? And I think she could be dead. But that's exactly it, like you think your daughter might have drowned in a bathtub. Call her and let her know that you're safe, and then you can see that she's safe. Like that, that you're safe, and then you can see that she's safe. Like that.
Speaker 1:That's the biggest thing is that we need to separate the fact from the fiction. It's easy to get into our mind and roll all these negative emotions around and all these negative uh, they call them ant's automatic negative thought. So once you get an automatic negative thought in your mind, that's now your fact and you buy into that. And now the snowball gets bigger and bigger and bigger, based on a false information. So if you can run this call and you're like, oh my god, that that, that, that grandma that just passed away looks just like my grandma, call your grandmother, call her. If you gotta cry on the phone and say, hey, grandma, we just ran this really bad call and this person reminded me of you, I needed to hear your voice, I love you, you, and so on and so forth, like that's, that's now like you taking this sadness, identifying it, acknowledging it and processing it and now, like, when you process it, it's gone.
Speaker 1:Um, and one of the books that I one of my top five books that I recommend was a Colin Powell's book. It worked for me. One of my top five books that I recommend was Colin Powell's book. It worked for me. And he goes. It's a. It's basically a leadership book, but you can tie it into a lot of personal things and one of his chapters is get mad and get over it, right.
Speaker 1:So I turned that into the peer support world and it's like you start asking questions, right, we don't, we don't tell people what to do. We ask them what they want to do. So you get to this point and somebody is like man, I just like. This person reminded me of this, this patient reminded me of this person in my life, and all I wanted to do was cry and I'm like, okay, and they're like, well, I can't just, I can't just cry, and it's like but that's what you want to do, and they're like, well, yeah, I'm like then cry, and then, when they cry, they're like man. That actually, I feel a whole lot better.
Speaker 1:So they. They got mad and got over it. Like I was pissed off at this mother because she walked away for a second and her baby drowned. Like that kid didn't, didn't deserve that. I'm pissed off at the mother. All right, why are you pissed off? And like I kind of kind of coach him into being angry and controlled. And then after the fact they're like oh yeah, all right Now. Now I feel better, right, and and in the peer support world we call that a cathartic release. It's like you, you have all these things in your mind that you want to say find somebody that you trust and respect and say them, get it out and get it over. Um, so we're always going to do that. We're going to run that call and we're going to. We're going to have an emotion attached to it, but, yes, during that call we have to suppress it.
Speaker 1:But then, when the call is done and settled, circle back, circle back to that find that one person on your, on your crew, or that, that that accountability officer that you have in the fire department, right, that one best friend that will tell you the hard truths and stuff, and say, hey, man, I ran this call and this was the scenario, and during the call I had to suppress this emotion.
Speaker 1:But now I'm coming back to it and I'm whatever that looks like. If they're that close enough of a friend, they're going to know like, all right, well, get it out, get it out and then be done with it. Like you said, and I'm sure a lot of the listeners have done, you get that negative emotion and you tuck it down and you try to bury it, you try to drink it away, you try to go to the gym and push it out, you try to whatever that coping mechanism looks like, you're like if I just do this, enough it'll, it'll overshadow that and it'll go away. It doesn't go away. We have to actually be vulnerable and talk about it and, uh, that that part right there make a note of that. That's going to circle back into one of my answers later.
Speaker 2:I got it. I'm putting a timestamp down right now, my brother.
Speaker 1:Perfect.
Speaker 2:Before we get into the questions, right, so, dude, you dropped a ton of knowledge, but it was really. You know, the whole point today was really to sit down and go over how valuable the peer support teams are across the nation, right, and then give your personal example, how you got on the team, what you guys currently do, everything else. And it's crazy because, like we had we had talked about in the beginning, you know no-transcript like, hey, I know you've been on the calls, I know you've been through the trenches, you got a lot of time on the job. Not that that means anything when it comes down to the peer support side, but for guys like me it's valuable because it's like okay, now I'm going to talk to a dude that's been there, right, not only has he been there on the calls, but, man, he has had a personal struggle and then has come out on top and then now is kind of dropping that knowledge and and and helping the brothers, and that it goes back to what we always talk about like leave the department better than you fucking found it.
Speaker 2:Like you, you have given specific, you could do nothing for the rest of your career, right, and at least look back and say I made a positive fucking difference. You know, not on a call, right, which we do every fucking day, right, but this is for the department but more importantly, it's for the fucking boys. Right, like, so next next time, right, someone is not going to have to go through what I went through, unless they're refusing to get help. You know, but like exactly. But with you, you're like you. You know you get to the point where you're like okay, as soon as firemen say shit, I need help, it's in the public sector, it's already fucking too late.
Speaker 2:You know, like where we we have broken at that point oh yeah so it's getting to the point where it's like, hey, let's grab these guys, like you're doing right now, before they're at the point where they're like I'm done, bro, you know, and then they're they're popping pills or thinking about other things or got you know, we all know what tragic you know cycle that, especially us, can go down. So, dude, fucking congrats man.
Speaker 2:Like I'm so fucking happy to hear the positive changes you guys are making and then just the the positive influence that you are having with the department right now and the people you care about, so that's, that's awesome. Is there anything else you want to add on the peer support side before we kind of wrap it up and get into the questions for season one?
Speaker 1:no, um, you know, if any of the listeners have questions about building a team or where we got started, how, like, like, what training platforms we're using, um, I'll, I'll give you my information at the end and you, you're more than welcome to share it. Um, again, we're we're not the best, but uh, we've, we've definitely laid some groundwork. So if anybody has questions on on any of that stuff, I'd be glad to give the best answer I can come up with. If not, point you in the right direction.
Speaker 2:Well, brad, go ahead and drop that info now, and I will also put Brad's information that he gives on this podcast. I'll put it in the podcast notes for everyone also. So go ahead and drop it now, brad.
Speaker 1:Sure, it's bradschriefer1282 at gmailcom and that's S-C R I E F E R, it's one of those tricky German names. Um, but yeah, that's, that's my personal email. Feel free to shoot me an email and uh, and you know, like I said I'll, I'll get you the best answer I can come up with.
Speaker 2:If not, I'll point you in the right direction. Perfect, yeah, dude, Thanks for thanks for giving that, giving that out and, like I said, that'll be in the show notes too. So anybody that wants to email brad or just has a question, or even if you just want to talk to the dude, like, said, solid, solid, brother, ton of experience, right, and uh, uh, always, you know, always, reach out. That's the whole point of this community, right? The fire service community is as a whole, and why this podcast exists is so we all learn something from each other east coast, west coast, mid coast.
Speaker 2:It doesn podcast exists is so we all learn something from each other East coast, west coast, mid coast, it doesn't fucking matter, right, we all do the same job, just slightly different ways and we talk a little bit different. But, yeah, let's help each other out. So, dude, first of all, brad, thank you again for your time, right, and thank you for coming on this show and really sharing your experience, because that that takes a lot, you know, especially for firemen to to share those vulnerable moments and and to admit like, yeah, dude, I was not good, you know, but I'm better now and this is, this is a route I went down, so congrats to you all the way around, brother.
Speaker 1:No, I appreciate it. Uh, you know, thanks for reaching out, thanks for thinking of me as a visitor on your show. Um, you know I love the work that you're doing and you know again, if this story helps one person, then you know it's worth. You know the entire time that we've been sitting here, so it's also good to catch up with you. It's been cool to talk to you over the last week. Probably haven't seen each other in what 10, 12 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, somewhere around there it's been a minute now. Yeah, so for sure, and it's. It's cool, because that's another great thing about the fire service, right, like, like brad was saying, we haven't, uh, we haven't reconnected in a long time, and then we literally picked up like it's been, uh, it's been nothing, it's been a week, you know yeah, like we worked together last week exactly so that I mean that's, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:All right, dude, so let's, uh, let's, let's get right into it. So we wrap it up here. Are you ready for the four questions for season one, brother?
Speaker 1:I'm ready.
Speaker 2:All right. So this is the why right, and we always say the why. So we ask the why when guys are trying to get hired, like why do you want to be a fireman. We ask the why when dudes are promoting or even just trying to do another job in the fire service. I'm sure you guys asked the why when you're interviewing people for that peer support team. So, but this why? Why did Brad and I already know this answer right? But I'm curious if I actually know the right answer or not. Why did you right? When did the bug bite you? Why'd you say, hey, I want to be a fucking goddamn fireman, right? When did that point happen? For?
Speaker 1:you. So I'm, I'm an eighties baby and those those of you from from that generation remember rescue nine one one. I remember I remember watching that and then my dad was a volunteer and both my grandfathers were volunteers. So like I would get to watch rescue nine one one and then go hang out with my dad at the firehouse and see actual fire engines and medic units and stuff like that. Like if we were there and a call went out, I'm like they're going, they could be on tv, there could be a video camera there and they might be on tv like yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:And then, hearing their stories and stuff like that, like, yeah, I got bit when I was like five years old, um, and then once I got to like 15 and my dad was like we could join, I was like, oh yeah, I could do this, like I could be a volunteer. This is so awesome. And then, you know, networking with some of the people that I volunteer with, they're like you know, you could do this as a profession. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, you can get paid to do this, like I thought it was just all volunteer. And they're like, no, like like I go to work tomorrow, like I'll be there for 24 hours, and I'm like, wait, wait, so you actually get to stay there overnight. And they're like, oh yeah, we cook dinner, we do all this. I'm like that's insane.
Speaker 1:And then, uh, when I was in, when I was in high school, the, the votech program kicked off and so I was like, yep, I'm gonna do that. I'll get like a thousand hours of training in a school year. Uh, I can, I could ride, I could do this, I can do all these cool things. I could, I could have my Superman cape. And then, uh, I remember talking to my guidance counselor and she was like so what do you want to do If you could have the perfect job, what would it be? And I was like, jokingly, as a smart ass, I said I want to make 25 an hour watching tv. And she's like she's like, yeah, good luck with that. So I wish I could find her now, because I'm making a whole lot more than 25 an hour now. Granted, we don't just sit and watch tv, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:we all know that.
Speaker 1:But that's dude, that's great um, so no, like you know, both of my grandfathers were in it for, uh, you know, almost 60 years each when they passed away. My dad's been doing it for close to 60 years himself and, you know, my brother got into it. So, like, really, I just lived and breathed it forever. And I describe it now to everybody outside of the fire department. I was like, yeah, yeah, I love my job. It's like a bunch of 13-year-old boys having a sleepover with million dollars, fire engines.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the truth. It's funny you said that too because I almost interjected and be like you know it's the only profession that we literally get to have adult sleepovers Like it's the best thing ever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's the only job on the planet that starts its day with a coffee break too.
Speaker 2:You got it, hey, yeah, sit down. Hey, before you do anything, sit down, let's talk for a second right.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Oh dude, I love it.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, once I started riding as a kid, and then you go to your first fire, you're like oh my God, that was awesome. Yeah, like, yeah, like. Why is everybody not doing this?
Speaker 2:this is so cool yeah, the best, the best job. It's funny because everyone that leaves this podcast at one point during the episode they always say that that we're like this is the best, like it's the best you know, like you're like we'll, we'll bitch about something, and then we always end it with but it's the fucking best job ever, like we wouldn't change it all. Right, dude, I love it. So, born you were, you were groomed to be a fireman from a very early age, so that's yeah pretty much.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. And then generational fireman like that means something to me, like both. Neither my kids will most likely be a fireman my daughter over my son, if any chance at all. But, um, dude, I love that. That legacy, that generational fireman stuff that like just because I, you know anybody loves this job, like that gives me a freaking like a hard on right there. Like that. That whole family tradition is amazing. So like the fact that literally third generation and then now on top of it, like you're not only the third generation like your, your brother's on the job also with the different departments, so I mean that's just super, super cool, yeah, so, anyway. So so let's get into the. So we know the why, right? So let's talk about the who. But when we talk about the who, I want who has been the most influential person so far in your career. That person does not have to be a fireman, but who has influenced your career so much all the way up to today. If you could pick one.
Speaker 2:So, I know it's hard.
Speaker 1:The hard yeah, the hard part is picking one. I have I have a list of my inner circle that have really helped me out. One guy actually was a battalion chief from another department. He's he's since retired. Uh, he and I are working on some some other stuff outside of the department, but like he's always kind of pushing me. Um so, donald Pumphrey, you mentioned him. He was like a number one, top notch dude. You will not find a better fire officer. If I could become half the officer that he was, I'll be in a good spot. Yeah, um so, but to pick one, I got to pick my best friend in the fire department, kendall hammock.
Speaker 2:Okay, tell us why.
Speaker 1:So Kendall and I really met. Uh, we were both assigned to the same station. He was on the shift. Um, that followed me, okay.
Speaker 2:And so he was your relief.
Speaker 1:What, yeah, yeah, so I was a paramedic but he was a firefighter, but we saw him every morning, right, and, and Kendall and I just clicked and we, we joke that we were twins in a second life and, um, we, we're each other's accountability officers, right? So Kendall Kendall's a black guy and he and I can have these conversations that would would be controversial in some places, like some people would just shut it down quickly and it's. But we have this, this trust and respect and this love for each other that if I'm asking questions, he knows it's not out of disrespect, and then we can really dive into some racial stuff. We can dive into whatever it is. And, uh, you know, if he's got a dilemma going on, he calls me and vice versa. And, um, we, we, we say we're accountability officers because we're able to have that tough love conversation and say things that the other person's not going to like to hear but needs to hear, and no matter what he says, I know it's out of love and respect. And you know, he's helped me with some, some major career decisions, right, Like I'm, I'm on the cusp of maybe going to the academy as, as the captain at the training academy, my moral dilemma is like I love my station, like my shift is awesome, all four shifts are awesome, we go to good calls, we have fun, we joke and we cut up.
Speaker 1:There is no shift drama, we've got great equipment. We're in a busy spot who wouldn't want to work in that firehouse? But now I have an opportunity that's going to help me along my career. It's also going to help everybody that works at the academy all the recruits, the RTOs, the lieutenants Like I feel like I have an impact, right, but I don't want to leave my station. And Kendall's like right, but you're going to regret not taking this opportunity if you don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no joke.
Speaker 1:And I'm like so and like he's had he's had personal stuff and professional stuff and like he was involved in a fire where, uh, sudden deterioration of of conditions, his firefighter does what he's trained he follows the line out the door, but there was a miscommunication and kendall didn't know he left kendall's kendall's inside with pre-flashover conditions, can't find his fireman and the writ crew is basically yanking him out of a window. So he goes head first out of a first floor window. Yeah, he gets out and he wants to run back in the front door because he can't find his fire gotcha, and he's already found him yep finds him in the front yard.
Speaker 1:They have some, uh, heated conversation, as anybody probably would, yes, but like now he's torn about that, like he's torn. Did I do this right? Did I? Did I almost kill this guy, did I do? And he knows that whatever I say is nonjudgmental, it's it's only to make him better and and kind of help him through that. So Kendall is and will always be one of those people that that I can always rely on, even if I think I screwed something up. I know he's not going to beat me up on it, but he's going to help me through it. So he's probably the most influential person right now.
Speaker 2:I do, I love it, I love it and it's. It sounds like basically well, actually not basically. You said the exact words best best friend on the department, for sure. So that makes you know that makes life a lot easier when you have that guy. That's a sounding board that can be a hundred percent honest with you and probably call you a fucking ass when you're being a fucking ass right now, and vice versa, right right, like if anybody else at the station said, hey man, you fucked this up and uh, you're an idiot.
Speaker 1:I'd be like okay yeah, right, but if kendall called me and was like, hey man, uh, I'm hearing about this call and I I think you might have missed something, you might have screwed up, I'd be like, oh shit, like, all right, lay it on me. What do I? What do I need to do to fix it? Yeah, talk to me bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah what are they saying? What did I hear? You know what? What I do, what do you think? Yeah, so dude, awesome, so best friend on the job, right, I love that. So what? So? Question number three what's your favorite fire department tradition, but, more importantly, why?
Speaker 1:so I, I love that the fire department is rich with tradition. I love, I love that. Um, unfortunately, we see that when things are too rich in tradition, we don't progress, we stay stuck. Um, but I, I love, I love, like, the hierarchy of it, and not to say that like, because I'm a captain with almost 20 years on, that I'm at the top of the totem pole. I love, I love that joking with the people. I love when the rookie comes in like all right, guys, let's give him the silent treatment today.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, I love the tradition of kind of, yeah, like testing people's limits and not as a hazing thing there's no place for hazing in the fire department, but there is a place for testing people's limits to see what they're actually made of and and once you get to that point, like you create these bonds and it goes back to that trust, love and respect and like that doesn't come easily in the fire department, but the tradition of making somebody earn that I think is awesome, because then once you have it, it's there for fricking ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude, I love it. And you and you hit the fricking nail on the head when you said, like, like, we have traditions, especially when it comes down to, like, the booters, the rookies, the probes, whatever you call them, depending on what department you work for Right, it's. It's one of those things where, like, these guys are earning their stripes and it takes time and it takes a lot of bantering and thick skin and everything else, but that's part of that brotherhood and that's part of becoming part of us. You know, and it's not hazing right.
Speaker 2:There is stuff that, you know, guys used to do back in the day that was absolutely 100% hazing right in today's standards, in today's standards, but it's one of those things where, like, those kinds of traditions should never go away because, exactly what you said, you're testing these people to see exactly where they sit, you know, and they're you know, then, once, once they quote unquote pass a test, they're you know, they're part of that brotherhood. That's like part of the, the vetting process, I believe, at least, again, and this is only my opinion, right, so, um, but, dude, I love that and it's funny too because, like how you answered it, like you're, like, I love the fact that we have traditions Like I'm. I'm the same boat. It's like like the, it's almost like the traditions could be an answer to the tradition question, like I love the fact that we have traditions, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I and like my, my unofficial statement, like in at the station, is uh, if I can't trust you with a dick joke, I can't trust you with my life.
Speaker 1:Like there you go, like just plain and simple, like we're going to, we're going to pick on each other, we're going to have fun. But, like when the shit hits the fan, if I've picked on you and you still come back to me for more advice, I know you're not going to leave me in a fire. I know you're going to be on my back If I screw something up. You're going to be there to defend me. If a patient starts getting cross with me, you're going to be. You're going to be jumping over stuff to get in the middle and, uh, you know, once we have that man, you're you're unstoppable. Like your crew is just unstoppable.
Speaker 2:Exactly, dude Good, freaking awesome. Exactly, dude good, freaking awesome, all right. Well, last last question, which is actually my favorite, favorite question of the group, and I'm I'm curious because everyone answers it, uh, so differently. So if you could snap your finger right and through fm, fucking magic, right, something is changed in the fire service immediately, like right now, what would it be? But why? Why would you change that certain thing? So what would you change that certain thing? So what would you change in the, in the fire service, with a snap of a finger if you could?
Speaker 1:So this is, this is where I told you to make that benchmark. Um, I would, I would start pushing for the the preventative stuff and like seeing making it mandatory for us to see counselors. Uh, and I know that's going to meet resistance, because people are like I'm good, I don't need to see a counselor, but we all have something going on, right? So I know we have to do physicals when we get hired, and then most departments are doing NFPA physicals annually, whatever that looks like, and some departments have physical standards. Right, you have to do an annual PT test. We aren't to that point yet, but I would love to see that. But with your annual physical, I would make it almost mandatory for us to see, even if it's quarterly, like you have to see a counselor at least quarterly. Even if you go for a few times and just sit there and do nothing for an hour, there's going to be a time in your career that you need it and when, when that rock breaks in half. That's not time to now discuss 20 years of bullshit to fix a now problem. And you know if, if we're going to, if we're going to be traditional and like now, departments are saying like, oh well, we have to be safe standards, we have to follow these standards clean calves, because of cancer and because of this and because of this, why are we not doing anything about the suicide rate? Um, like, this is not talked about because they don't want it out, but suicides outweigh line of duties probably tenfold and we're not talking about it. Like I just said that, and I'm sure a lot of people are like there's no way. Do your research and you're going to find that the numbers are staggering. We are letting firemen and paramedics and police officers and everything. We're letting them kill themselves more than they're getting killed on the line of duty and we're not doing anything about it because nobody wants to open that Pandora's box. So, if, if you seeing a quarterly counselor or, uh, you know, every other month, whatever that looks like, that would be my standard If I was chief.
Speaker 1:I always joke with things and I say, if I was king of the fire department, this is what I would do and that would be the first step, because having that mental health taken seriously and actually dealing with it is going to keep people on the street. It's going to make the people on the street better at what they do, it's better for them themselves, better for their families, it's better for the people we go out to protect, and it's just. There's not a bad thing about it. The only bad thing about it is we're not doing it. And as soon as we do make it a mandatory thing, you're going to get pushback. But then as soon as people's stories start creeping out in a positive light, it'll everybody will jump on board yeah, absolutely, and you know I've.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest with you, I've never even thought of that being part of the annual physical. And I'm thinking, listening to you talk and go why the fuck don't we do that Like we literally like, every year, I know my shoulder mobility sucks, right, I know this, right, like, and they remind me every fucking year during my physical. Oh, by the way, you need to stretch. Yeah, I know I need to stretch, like or whatever, but like, I couldn't imagine being able to like.
Speaker 2:Part of that is you talk to a therapist? So, first of all, that that takes away that nuance like, oh, I've never done this before, or it's for whoever pussies, or however. Like, depending on your mentality at that point, right, but the fact that you've been exposed to it from day one in the fire service every year to the point where you have a problem, it's like nobody. So, honestly, it's no big deal at that point because it's like, hey, I'm gonna call my doc, just like, hey, I got a freaking sinus infection, I'm gonna get a z-pack or some shit like that. Like, hey, man, I, I had a shitty call, I'm gonna call my doc, right, I'm gonna sit down and we're gonna do a couple sessions and then, if I don't feel better, I'll do a couple more.
Speaker 1:But if not, like since I'm kind of doing the the problem that we're we're seeing is that, all right, when that happens, right, you're now, you're, you're in the hole. You go to your primary care. So your primary care is gonna be like oh, you're depressed, here's an antidepressant. Oh, you can't sleep, here's a sleeping pill. So we're just putting we're putting band-aids on it to make it that much worse. And like, like if you had, uh, if you had a leak in your house, you wouldn't call the electrician to see what's going on. Like you wouldn't just call a general contractor, you call a plumber, right?
Speaker 2:like you already know you got a leak, right.
Speaker 1:so, if, if, uh, like I always say, like every now and then, we need to check up from the neck up right. The most important six inches on the fire ground is the space between your ears, and that's the one thing that we're not taking care of. We're getting, we're getting a lot better, we're getting better at recognizing it, but it's like you know, uh, what's that commercial? Like, oh no, I'm just a monitor. Like I can tell you you're not right, but I don't know what to do to fix it, right. So, so, like that, that would be my immediate change.
Speaker 1:Like everybody would have to see a counselor at some point. You know whether it's, you know a departmental, or you have to go through your own. Um, we, our department, has actually hired on a mental health clinician. Like we have a doc that works side by side with us, uh, and he is flooded. Like, if you need to get in with him, it's and he is flooded. If you need to get in with him, it's six weeks or more. When you're in crisis mode, you don't have six weeks.
Speaker 2:You don't have six hours sometimes.
Speaker 1:Right. I've heard horror stories where people are on the phone with a hotline, with a bottle of booze and a gun right beside them. They need an answer right now and I don't have six weeks to wait. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And shame on us if that's the only option. Like, hey, we do have an option for you, but it's going to take a couple months, so shame on us if that's the only option that they're offering at the time. So, dude, I love, I love, I love. I love the freaking answers. Man, that was a. You killed it. The, the, the best. Snap your fingers and change something in the fire service answer I've heard to date so far. So, overall, you killed it. But most importantly, dude, thank you so much for your time. This is going to wrap up our episode, but before we leave, is there anything that you want to add? Or or or leave with the audience before we sign off here.
Speaker 1:Uh, no, I mean, that's that's, that's a loaded question, cause I'll I'll ramble on about this shit for hours and days, if you let me, um, but but again, thanks for having me, thanks for thinking of me. Uh, thanks for entertaining the idea and the topic. Um, you know, uh, like I said, if it, if it helps one person affects one person. Uh, then then my time was well, well served and uh, everybody has my information. If you have any questions, please, my phone's almost always on um, shoot me email. If you're from the West coast, we're we're a few hours behind, but I'll do my best to get back to you as soon as I can and, uh, you know, get you in the right direction. So, thanks again for having me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, brad, thanks for coming on here, and this is a very fucking important topic in the fire service and people are finally realizing how important that mental health side is. So do kudos to you again for doing such strong work, bro. You know, um, it pitted me of what being a fucking fireman is, you know like not only kicking ass on calls and fucking being a good supervisor for the boys, keeping everyone safe, being super aggressive, but making sure you fucking handle and take care of your guys after. I mean, that's always the missing piece. So, dude, fucking great job in killing it.
Speaker 2:I hope you, you know, do another whatever 20, 30 fucking years in the fire service. You choose to do that, or you retire tomorrow. Whatever makes your heart happy, brother, but listen again. Thank you for your time. Uh, thank you everyone for taking time out of your day to listen and we'll catch you in two more weeks. All right, have a good one. Thanks for joining us. Always remember the most important grab you'll make in your fire service career is saving a complacent firefighter from themselves. Catch you next episode.
